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#101
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#102
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"George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... "Kevin Brooks" wrote in message t... "George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... (Snip) George, his flight phsical did not run out until sometime in 1972--he volunteered for Palace Alert while he was finishing training in early 1970. By the time his physical ran out Palace Alert was no longer sending ANG F-102 pilots to Vietnam/Thailand, and in fact the ANG was already starting to dump its F-102's entirely (IIRC the majority were retired by mid 1974). So I still don't see what you are griping about--he volunteered while he was completing his Combat Crew training in the F-102, and he remained qualified in the F-102 throughout the remaining period that Palace Alert was sending ANG folks overseas. Apparently he was told upon volunteering, "Thanks, but no thanks--we have enough experienced (1000 hour plus) F-102 pilots asking for this duty so wea re not taking LT's straight out of the schoolhouse." You admitted earlier that you had never even heard of Palace Alert, but now you are in a position to judge GWB's volunteer status in that regard without realizing that you apparently had your timeline out of whack? If you want to condemn him for not being the best officer they ever had in the 111th FG based upon his overall service record, fine, that is a matter of opinion for you to decide--but trying to claim that he never volunteered, or that he volunteered and then figuratively shot himself in the foot via his flight physical to avoid having to meet that voluntary requirement, is just plain false, and the factual timeline does not support that assertion. On the subject of volunteering, when he first joined the Texas ANG, he filled out a form and checked a box on that form indicating that he did not wish to serve overseas. When asked about it, he later said that he didn't remember it, and a member of his staff subsequently offered the imaginative explanation that a personnel clerk must have done it for him. Even if it was true, it didn't matter who did what.....he signed the form and was responsible for the accuracy of everything in it. If you read the (not very pro-GWB at that) article I provided you with, you'd realize that this is a non-starter. The source of the "clerk" bit was the following (not a "member of his staff" as you stated): "...the Washington Post reported on July 28th that "two weeks later, his office provided a statement from a former, state-level Air Guard personnel officer, asserting that since Bush 'was applying for a specific position with the 147th Fighter Group, it would have been inappropriate for him to have volunteered for an overseas assignment and he probably was so advised by the military personnel clerk assisting him in completing the form.'" Note that this was written during the campaign and reported by a none-too-pro-Bush source. If you have any doubt as to the likelihood of that explanation, I can assure you that as late as the early 1990's we went through the practice of having every member of our ARNG "contingency force pool" (high priority for deployment) unit sign a specific "volunteer" statement which was to be used if our unit was required for contingency operations overseas. The legal hurdles over employing Guard forces overseas now are not nearly what they were before ODS. You spent a career in the USAF and never had a clerk tell you, "No, sir, I know that is what you think that means, but you need to answer XXX" (usually followed by the ominous, "..or it might take months to get your pay straightened out")? About Palace Alert, Bush apparently applied for it some time during his Combat Crew Training program, and also apparently was promptly told that he didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being selected for it because of his lack of flying experience. In any case, I learned that the program was discontinued exactly one week after Bush had completed his Combat Crew Training Course. The fact of his volunteering for that program hardly signified any serious interest in making that kind of contribution, since he was told up front that it wasn't going to happen for him. He volunteered and was then told no. He had no way of knowing the program was going to be tubed when he volunteered. And you think that is something he should be ashamed of? I think you have to keep in mind that, unlike his predecesor, who you go to equal or even greater extremes to defend his utter lack of military service, not to mention his outright "loathing of the military", there is no (none, zilch, zero) evidence that GWB had the lofty ambition of being President, so why he would have carried out such a complex and carefully calculated scheme to "volunteer without volunteering" is beyond me. Clinton, on the other hand, clearly enunciated his ambition in his letter to that PMS: "The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason: to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress." As if that were not enough, he had to also say, "I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you to understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military..." How you can defend Clinton for such a coldly calculating approach to not only actively avoiding service while protecting his political viability, something he readily admitted to, while trying to tear down Bush based upon your interpretation of what you think he MIGHT have meant by volunteering for Palace Alert is frankly beyond me. Regarding the business about his flight physical, they normally expire a month following the birth month of the flyer, which would make it August of '72 in his case. In April of '72, it apparently became common knowledge that flight physicals were going to routinely include drug screenings. It wouldn't have stopped me one way or the other, but it must have bothered him enough to manufacture an excuse for not making his appointment by saying that his physician resided in Houston, Texas while he was ostensibly serving with an Alabama ANG unit. He abandoned that excuse when it was pointed out that any rated flight surgeon was authorized to conduct such examinations, and there were numerous ones available for his use at Maxwell AFB, Alabama. He chose not to renew his physical knowing full well that it would end his flying career, which it did. Doesn't it make you wonder what the impetus might have been to do something like that? I think we both know what the reality of the situation was. I don't think that is anything you can corroborate as factual. I find it a bit surprising that you build an entire case against Bush based solely upon supposition, inuendo, and a strangely skewed timeline (though I at least am now happy that you have at last realized he DID volunteer for Palace Alert), and are convinced it is fact, but the very mention of Clinton as being anti-military, or of his REAL draft dodging, brings you springing to his defense. I'm sure that you're thoroughly unimpressed with all of this, and perhaps it's time to lay it to rest and move on, since it looks like neither of us is going to change our views of the man. In any event, he's still our President and CIC, and belaboring the details of his service isn't really going to change anything. True enough. And you might find it a bit surprising, but I am none too enamored of some of his policies. I've even been known to vote for a democrat upon occasion. Best wishes for the holidays (and don't get the idea I have given up if you receive no further response from me for a while--on the way to the in-laws down south tomorrow morning). Brooks George Z. |
#103
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"B2431" wrote in message ... From: "George Z. Bush" am "Kevin Brooks" wrote in message et... "George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... (Snip) On the subject of volunteering, when he first joined the Texas ANG, he filled out a form and checked a box on that form indicating that he did not wish to serve overseas. snip George Z. A great many young GIs filled out dream sheets with postings near home. They are probably still doing it. Bush simply could have wanted to stay near family. I wouldn't read anymore into it whether or not he remembers ever having done it. I don't. I accept his explanation at face value. He just didn't remember.....but he did sign the form and was responsible for everything on it. He didn't want to go overseas while a war was raging in Viet Nam. He wanted to be close to his family, just like countless others, many of whom were conveniently labeled draft dodgers. BTW, family for him in those days was just Mom, Dad and a couple of brothers. He didn't get married until long after those days.....1977 to be precise. George Z. |
#104
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"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message t... "George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... (Snip) True enough. And you might find it a bit surprising, but I am none too enamored of some of his policies. I've even been known to vote for a democrat upon occasion. Best wishes for the holidays (and don't get the idea I have given up if you receive no further response from me for a while--on the way to the in-laws down south tomorrow morning). It's probably just as well, since we seem to be going around in circles, anyway. Just be sure to take your passport along when you cross into my part of the country.....we sometimes allow Yankees to roam our countryside without keepers if they have their passports with them, but never Damn Yankees! (^-^))) Enjoy the holidays and have a safe trip. George Z. Brooks George Z. |
#105
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"George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... "Kevin Brooks" wrote in message t... "George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... (Snip) True enough. And you might find it a bit surprising, but I am none too enamored of some of his policies. I've even been known to vote for a democrat upon occasion. Best wishes for the holidays (and don't get the idea I have given up if you receive no further response from me for a while--on the way to the in-laws down south tomorrow morning). It's probably just as well, since we seem to be going around in circles, anyway. Just be sure to take your passport along when you cross into my part of the country.....we sometimes allow Yankees to roam our countryside without keepers if they have their passports with them, but never Damn Yankees! (^-^))) LOL! George, I'm a Virginian; I hope that still counts as southern, with the possible exception of that part of the state that lies north of the Rappahannock (the emphasis in the expression "Northern Viginia" should be on the first word). My wife however was born in NY, so I'll make sure she brings her Green Card along! Gotta go, but in a vague effort to keep this somewhere close to topical, I'll mention that the inlaws live outside Daytona in one of the very few "fly in" communities in the country--they have an airfield (originally an old Naval Air Station), and many of the homes have hangars attached; aircraft can taxi down the "streets". Neat place! Brooks Enjoy the holidays and have a safe trip. George Z. Brooks George Z. |
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