Instrument departure, non-IFR airport

wrote in message
ups.com...
It looks like,
practically speaking, the only way I'm going to be able to depart KRIR
with a low ceiling is by going SVFR to KRAL first, then proceeding IFR
from there. Receiving ATIS and TWR on the ground at KRIR is not an
issue and, traffic and wx permitting they will provide a SVFR
clearance for KRAL while I'm still on the ground at KRIR.

Works if you can fly below 700 AGL into KRAL CDAS. And not at night.

Steve where did you find the SOCAL SOP?
Al


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote:

Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the
controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be
permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on
the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of
Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively
impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar
or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm
not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have
been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that
permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal
on "first come, first, served"?


The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two
airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris
Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter
controlled airspace southwest of
Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR,
direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or
TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else
which mentions IFR departures from Flabob.



BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no
clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in
error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude.
That was the end of that conversation.


Your experience with FSDO is not unusual.

On Mar 2, 1:43 pm, "Stan Prevost" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...

It looks like,
practically speaking, the only way I'm going to be able to depart KRIR
with a low ceiling is by going SVFR to KRAL first, then proceeding IFR
from there. Receiving ATIS and TWR on the ground at KRIR is not an
issue and, traffic and wx permitting they will provide a SVFR
clearance for KRAL while I'm still on the ground at KRIR.

Works if you can fly below 700 AGL into KRAL CDAS. And not at night.


CDAS?

The airports are only about 3 miles apart. Given a low ceiling rather
than reduced vis, the topography and obstacles are not a problem.
Departing KRIR from rwy 24 on a left 45 in seconds you are over the
center of KRAL if that is your intent.

But it is a pain-in-the-butt if time is an issue, if the vis is worse
in that direction, if there is very low stratus to the South, as is
sometimes the case. I'm still holding out hope that I can, under the
right circumstances, get an IFR clearance on the ground, from KRIR.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

You would have to ask the TARCON and FSDO the original poster dealt with.



I can only ask you to clarify what you wrote.


What I wrote was perfectly clear.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

On Mar 2, 12:40 pm, Sam Spade wrote:

You should look at the airport and airspace at issue.



I did.


Do you know where the closest SCT ASR antenna is to the OP's airport?

wrote:
Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no
instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I
was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with
VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance
up while airborne.


100% wrong. An IFR clearance can be given from any place. You are
responsible for terrain and obstructions until reaching the altitude
given by the controller. If no altitude is given then the start of
controlled airspace.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

On Mar 2, 12:42 pm, Sam Spade wrote:

I didn't say that it necessarily does. I can also understand why SoCal
and KRAL tower don't want to do it.-



Why do you believe they don't want to do it?

I said I can understand why they would not want to do it. It is more
than a belief.

I don't believe you understand the airspace issues in that area. It is
different than Wisconsin.

Sam Spade wrote:


If controlled airspace was not involved you could do what you want. But,
the rub comes in them providing you a clearance into (presumably
1200-foot floor Class E airspace without some procedure that assures
obstacle clearance until reaching the minimum IFR altitude.

Not ATC's problem. That's 100% on the pilot.

wrote:


I just got off the phone with a supe for that sector. She was very
"firm" that there is no SOP and no clearances will be provided. I
gently pressed as much as I could about why, short of forcing her to
hang up on me, and she acknowledged that terrain is my issue not ATCs,
and implied that bad behavior in the on the part of local pilots in
the past had caused them to suspend the procedure. She would not say
what happened, but mentioned "What if you you go NORDO, what if we
can't tag you, then we are holding up everything for ONT and other
airports. " Of course, the same is true in many areas, so I think
there is more to the story they are just not forthcoming about. Very
frustrating.

You should call her back and tell her that Steve McNicoll says she is
wrong and doesn't know what she is doing. ;-)

Seriously, that 1,400+ hill to the west of the airport blocks the radar
site at KONT. I doubt they can see you until your well into KRAL's Class D.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

On Mar 2, 11:57 am, wrote:

Is this SOP publicly available?



No.


It would be with a FOIA request.