Radio 'altercation' with ATC

Howdy,

I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
(non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
The following is the jist of the conversation:

Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
separation"

A couple minutes later

Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.

I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.

I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Cheers,

Cap

Your recommendations are exactly what I do.
If the controller gets huffy, acknowledge the new instructions.
When you get on the ground, call and talk to the supervisor.
The FAA has a reporting program in place to file complaints about ATC
issues such as this. (The paper with the information is in my kitchen,
buried at this time.)

wrote:
I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.
I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.
But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Once in radio contact with ATC, whether inside of that controller's airspace
or not, the pilot should get permission before doing anything like a 360. He
(in this case) has no idea of the controller's traffic management plan.

I agree that the best thing to do is comply with instructions and hash it
out on the ground. Ask the controller for a phone number and his initials.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy,

I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
(non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
The following is the jist of the conversation:

Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
separation"

A couple minutes later

Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.

I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.

I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Cheers,

Cap

wrote in message
ups.com...

I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.

I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.


I think I would have told the student the same thing. If, however, this is
the third or fourth time that this has happened and previous complaints had
no effect, then I might publicly snarl at the controller.

John Smith wrote :
Your recommendations are exactly what I do.
If the controller gets huffy, acknowledge the new instructions.
When you get on the ground, call and talk to the supervisor.

I agree with John. Airborne is no place to argue or correct ATC if
there's no immediate danger.

Given that, I'd say that the pilot in the original post was
absolutely correct in his assesment. A pilot does not need permission
from a tower controller to manuever outside the class D. Although,
it would be courteous to inform them of the manuever. Particularly if
there is a lot of traffic inbound/outbound to the airport.
John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Just a somewhat uneducated guess...

You were inbound to an airport and talking to tower. Would it have been too
much trouble to simply key the mic and tell the controller that you were
having spacing problems on the Cherokee, and ask for permission to do your
360's?

Regardless of regulations, regardless of responsibility, isn't tower
providing sequencing at that point? Common sense would tell you that under
those circumstances, if everyone of the aircraft simply started flying
whatever path they wanted to would be an extremely dangerous situation.

You noted: "The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of
prickly". If this is an example of the types of situations they are dealing
with, don't you think their attitude might be justified?






wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy,

I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
(non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
The following is the jist of the conversation:

Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
separation"

A couple minutes later

Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.

I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.

I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Cheers,

Cap

The CFI must have thought he was on a Usenet newsgroup.

The sensible response would have been, "Roger."

Don

I am not a CFI or even commercial rated (yet). I have had similar
situations where I fly. I've had approach chew me out because my IFR
plan had just expired (hey, who would have expected having to sit for
30 minutes waiting for 10 aircraft to land at a private field). Notice,
not a clearance, but flight plan. We were going to activate in the air
since it was VFR conditions. All we would have needed to do was contact
FSS and re-enter it. The CFII beside me had been a controller and told
me that the controller was out of line.

My suggestions a (1) ASRA filing -- you don't have to be the
involved pilot(s). This will get someones attention to a problem. (2)
Contact the FSDO and/or ADO. File a complaint about the behaviors of
the controllers. This will also get things corrected.

IMHO there is a reason that some people are NON-FED controllers. They
couldn't hack it within the FAA or USMIL. These people, in my
experience, tend to have an attitude.

Lastly, mic-fright is what kept me from getting my Instrument rating
for so long. And why when flying places, I would actually go well out
of my way to avoid "C" and "B" airspace. Meeting with FAA personnel in
WINGS programs have allowed some of us to get them to understand that
even Instrument pilots get "scared" when calling ground/clearance at
some airfields.

Regards,
Steve.T

wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Generally, one is required to comply with ATC instructions. Regardless of
whether you're "in their airspace" or not. That said, it doesn't sound like
the tower controller gave any particular instruction that the pilot here
could have been construed as not complying with.

In any case, clearly the pilot was well within his rights, whether he was
within the Class D airspace or not, to maneuver as necessary to avoid other
traffic. IMHO, it was a bad idea to do 360s (especially multiple 360s)
without keeping the controller in the loop by telling them of the plan. But
I don't see any regulatory violation.

In other words: I don't think the pilot violated any federal rules, but he
did violate some basic common sense rules. Between the pilot and the
controller, I think the controller made more/bigger mistakes than the pilot.

I agree with your thoughts that it's not helpful to get into arguments on
the radio. I've had my share of "interesting" moments with ATC, but it
almost never solves anything to make comments on the radio. I just stick to
the important stuff, like clearances and requests and whatnot. But who
knows? Maybe this particular controller, this is just what he needed to get
him thinking the right way. Probably not, but you never know.

Pete

On 10 Dec 2004 14:24:54 -0800, wrote:

So...what is your take on this?

I had something similar happen to me, but I think it was a controller
misunderstanding of my situation or he was having a bad day.

I reside under charlie airspace. I took off, turn out toward the NE
practice area. I listened, approach was jockeying several planes, so I
maintained 500 feet below the floor of charlie airspace. I called in
Approach 43L. Approach didn't acknowledge and about 1 minute later, I
called in again Approach, Sundowner 12345L, one thousand 400 feet 2 miles
north of Madison, headed to the NE practice area. Approach said to me,
43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90. Squawk
0104. HUH??????? I am doing VFR to the practice area! Never had to call
before wheels up before!

Thoroughly confused, thinking I was calling on the wrong frequency, look at
my com 2 and saw I was on the correct frequency. I keyed the mike up, 43L
listening on 123.90. Because he befuddled me, I had to re-ask the squawk
code, which of course didn't make him any happier. I confirmed the squawk,
and continued on to the practice area.

Personally, I was confused and mad at the same time as I sure didn't expect
the kind of treatment I received. So, I had to say to myself, the less
said the better, get the squawk code and enjoy the flight.

I think the controller must have thought diffently later on his initial
contact with me, as he was nice as pie when I wanted to return to my
airport.

So, in a nutshell, I have to agree with others, there is no time for
arguing on the radio. Do what ATC says, and resolve it on the ground. Of
course, if ATC says something contrary to safety, I would exercise my PIC
duties.

Allen