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#21
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
Greg Esres wrote:
Les Izmore wrote: This is being treated like some kind of academic angels-on-the-head- of-a-pin question. It is not. Not to you, maybe. People ask questions here for a variety of reasons: 1) legality, 2) safety, 3) passing checkrides, 4) curiosity, etc. Regarding safety, no doubt you're 100% correct. We have a local VOR approach with a course change at the FAF and a high descent gradient on final. Without descending immediately pass the VOR, the odds of getting in shrink rapidly. Not to mention real issues trying to do a slam-dunk low to the ground. |
#22
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:41:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Feb 19, 2:53*pm, Les Izmore wrote: This is being treated like some kind of academic angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin question. *It is not. It is academic. Two choices, very simple. Either you are on the final approach course, or not. If not, you go missed, nothing complicated. I think you need to go back and re-read the original post. They usually "try harder" *to reintercept the course while going still lower. *This practially always ends up in a situation that could be disastrous in actual conditions. Then that pilot is behind the plane. See above for choices of action. Really very academic. It may not be a training issue, but a currency issue, thus the IMPORTANCE of staying current. and I base that opinion on watching a lot of pilots, many of them experienced and *instrument rated, screw approaches up pretty badly, for any number of reasons. At anytime a pilot "screws up" as you alleged, missed is always that option. Very academic. I personally experience quite the opposite for IA pilots when I was their safety pilot, they get it right and never gone full deflection. I am not a CFI by any means for what this is worth. I don't care what the "book" says. Book is very clear. If you are not on the final approach course within the established tolerances, you go missed. What part of the book is hard to understand? The orignal question is a very elementary question for IA flying. For what it's worth, in my 600 hours of instrument flying, it takes a hell of a lot more then 1 or 2 miles for the CDI to start moving. If that is happening to the original poster, or you experienced that, then there is something wrong with that station signal or airplane equipment and a missed approach is in order. KMBO has the VOR alpha approach and I can pick up the VOR signal strong on both my NAV1 and NAV2 within 20 miles. When you are within 1 or 2 miles of a final approach fix (I.E. VOR) it is normal to get a full deflection from that "zone of confusion" for the CDI. The needles will recapture within a mile or two of station passage. But you do not descend before getting the from flag on your NAV1 or NAV2 AND being on the final approach course. If you don't get a from flag you go missed even if you are on the final approach course as something is radically wrong equipment wise.. Note the word AND, both being on the approach course AND from flag, BOTH must be present. VERY SIMPLE! The original question was so basic, that it sounded like an Mx question.. Allen |
#23
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
On Feb 20, 12:33*pm, Les Izmore wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:41:20 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Feb 19, 2:53*pm, Les Izmore wrote: This is being treated like some kind of academic angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin question. *It is not. It is academic. Two choices, very simple. *Either you are on the final approach course, or not. *If not, you go missed, nothing complicated. I think you need to go back and re-read the original post. Why? My response was directed to you. It was a very academic question and I responses were to what I quoted on you, not the original poster. If I wanted to respond to the original post, I would have done so. Your response at best was very questionable, and see what I quoted on what I was questioning. Allen |
#24
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
The original post, and subsequent messages (with the exception of
yours) all related to the advisability of starting a descent on a VOR approach immediately upon passing a VOR, before aquiring any course guidance from the VOR needle or HSI. Your response was not germane. Read the posts, Grasshopper. Your responses will then more likely be relevant to the issues. On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:28:54 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Feb 20, 12:33*pm, Les Izmore wrote: On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:41:20 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Feb 19, 2:53*pm, Les Izmore wrote: This is being treated like some kind of academic angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin question. *It is not. It is academic. Two choices, very simple. *Either you are on the final approach course, or not. *If not, you go missed, nothing complicated. I think you need to go back and re-read the original post. Why? My response was directed to you. It was a very academic question and I responses were to what I quoted on you, not the original poster. If I wanted to respond to the original post, I would have done so. Your response at best was very questionable, and see what I quoted on what I was questioning. Allen |
#25
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
On Feb 20, 4:01*pm, Les Izmore wrote:
Your response was not germane. REALLY??????? Where did I misquote you and where did I misappropriately reply to YOUR responses. Like I said, if I wanted to respond to the original post, I would have. I responded to you, and quoted your response. Better hop to English reading courses grasshopper. Allen |
#26
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:56:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Feb 20, 4:01*pm, Les Izmore wrote: Your response was not germane. REALLY??????? Where did I misquote you and where did I misappropriately reply to YOUR responses. Where did anyone say you misquoted me? "Not germane" does not mean "misquote". You were off the thread topic, very simply. If you wish to discuss that topic (see the Subject line- " VOR approach - when to descend from the FAF"), I will be happy to accomodate you. The other stuff you mentioned is of no interest. Like I said, if I wanted to respond to the original post, I would have. I responded to you, and quoted your response. Better hop to English reading courses grasshopper. Allen |
#27
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
On Feb 20, 9:31*pm, Les Izmore wrote:
The other stuff you mentioned is of no interest. To you maybe of no interest.... because I responded to you, questioning some things you said? Clearly what you said regarding pilots messing up approaches didn't have anything to do with the original posted question. Clearly the way you don't believe in what the book said had nothing to do with the original posted question. Clearly pilots trying to reintercept the localizer had nothing to do with the original question. So, who drifted of topic???? Like I said grasshopper, get to a reading course, ALL I DID was respond to your very strange responsey. Don't believe me? Reread your own post and my subsequent replies. Like it or not grasshopper, my replies were relevant to your post since I replied DIRECTLY to your post. Allen |
#28
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:26:41 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Feb 20, 9:31*pm, Les Izmore wrote: The other stuff you mentioned is of no interest. To you maybe of no interest.... because I responded to you, questioning some things you said? Clearly what you said regarding pilots messing up approaches didn't have anything to do with the original posted question. It had everything to do with the original question. Let me explain: The original poster asked about starting to descend on a VOR approach before receiving an on-course indication from his navigation equipment. A responder or two either implied or said explicitly that there was no problem in doing that. I posted a contrary opinion, and said I thought it was not a good practice. To support that statement, I said that I had seen (and I have) many approaches messed up once the pilot loses the approach course below altitude and then tries to remedy the situation in undesirable ways. Clearly the way you don't believe in what the book said had nothing to do with the original posted question. Clearly it does. I was stating that safety issues often override what might be permitted by "the book", in this case, descending without positve guidance. Clearly pilots trying to reintercept the localizer had nothing to do with the original question. Au contraire, but it clearly did. It was a part of the scenario I was using to describe an accident chain that could begin with the case in point. (It was a VOR approach, incidentally, not a localizer) So, who drifted of topic???? Like I said grasshopper, get to a reading course, ALL I DID was respond to your very strange responsey. Don't believe me? Reread your own post and my subsequent replies. In the future, I might suggest that you think twice before responding to what you describe as "strange response[s])". They may appear strange to you because, as is obvious in this case, you simply do not have a firm grasp of the issue under discussion. I can't help you with that. However, if you wish to try to discuss the safety issues involved in beginning a descent without course guidance, I will be happy to oblige, in the interests of aviation safety. Like it or not grasshopper, my replies were relevant to your post since I replied DIRECTLY to your post. Allen |
#29
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
"Terence Wilson" wrote in message ... When flying a VOR approach in which the FAF is defined by the VOR, is it appropriate to start the descent to the MAP, or next stepdown, immediately after overflying the VOR or should I wait until I have positive course guidance for the final approach segment? I ask because it can sometimes take 1-2nm for the CDI to move, which may require a rushed descent to the MAP on some approaches. I spend that minute or so making sure my heading and approach airspeed are under control, and then simply catch up to the descent afterward when the needle comes back. It'll be interesting to see how other people do it, but that's the way I was trained. -c |
#30
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VOR approach- when to descend from the FAF
On 02/21/08 09:27, gatt wrote:
"Terence Wilson" wrote in message ... When flying a VOR approach in which the FAF is defined by the VOR, is it appropriate to start the descent to the MAP, or next stepdown, immediately after overflying the VOR or should I wait until I have positive course guidance for the final approach segment? I ask because it can sometimes take 1-2nm for the CDI to move, which may require a rushed descent to the MAP on some approaches. I spend that minute or so making sure my heading and approach airspeed are under control, and then simply catch up to the descent afterward when the needle comes back. It'll be interesting to see how other people do it, but that's the way I was trained. -c I was taught to begin the descent at station passage (using the 5 'T's). It's never taken more than just a very few seconds for the CDI to start coming back in. A minute seems awfully long. By the way, if the needle doesn't come back in, I would go missed. The first thing I do there is begin a climb. I really don't see how it causes any problems to begin the descent at station passage (assuming that is what the procedure calls for, of course). -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
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