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#41
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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message ... A difference? It points out that erroneous conclusions are possible, and that speculation as to the cause of aircraft mishaps is risky. Whether he was short of fuel due to poor planning or due to a fuel leak is irrelevant, the end result of fuel starvation over the lake is death. I'm sure you have traversed hostile terrain in your Champ at one time or another. I've never crossed terrain where loss of power meant my death. |
#42
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"Chris" wrote in message ... And maybe it was the fact that he was only 20 years old. Are you saying 20 year olds are stupid? |
#43
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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message ... If his actual fuel burn exceeded his planned fuel burn, it would indicate fuel leaking via one route or another. Not necessarily. It could indicate he was weak on flight planning or proper use of the mixture control. |
#44
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:12:54 GMT, Larry Dighera wrote:
What I find disappointing is the late pilot's lack of authoritative attitude while exercising the duties of Pilot In Command. He called ATC and confessed his dwindling fuel state only minutes before ditching. He asked ATC if he should exit the aircraft while it was sinking. It was as though he was praying instead of thinking. Just curious Larry, You seem to be very hard on this individual. Have you, yourself been confronted with a real deal emergency while PIC? I have had (what others called emergencies) 3 situations where I did what I was trained to do, and that was aviate, navigate and then communicate. I had a failed vacuum pump during a night flight, partial engine failure (lost a cylinder in flight) and an electrical fire. Only in the cylinder failure did I declare an emergency. I posted my experience to the rec.aviation.student newsgroup under "first emergency which is archived in Google. I say this, because I always thought I would be the type to "panic", yet I listened to what my instructor always said, and that is to aviate (fly the plane), navigate and then communicate. On the vacuum pump failure and electrical fire, after aviating and navigating, I advised ATC of my problems. From what I heard on the tapes, it appeared to me, the pilot was doing what he was suppose to be doing. Aviate, navigate and then communicate. Yes, I agree, he made some questionable decisions in the first place, and even though the outcome came out with the ultimate price, it really seem to me, that he did do the three golden rules of aviate, navigate and communicate. He made a survivable landing in water at night, which in my opinion, seems like he was aviating the plane. He knew his position, so he was navigating, and he was communicating, from everything I heard from the tapes on what seemed to be a very level, professional level. Monday night quarter backing is great, but when the pressure cooker is on, we tend to react much differently then the comforts of our homes. Anyone who fails to recognize that they are the primary factor in saving themselves in an emergency situation is doomed. Condolences to the surviving family members. RIP. Only thing I can agree with any of your posts so far. Allen (who pretty much had to change his britches after aviating a "3 cylinder plane" for 20 minutes. |
#45
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On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:27:33 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in . net:: "Larry Dighera" wrote in message .. . What I find disappointing is the late pilot's lack of authoritative attitude while exercising the duties of Pilot In Command. He called ATC and confessed his dwindling fuel state only minutes before ditching. He asked ATC if he should exit the aircraft while it was sinking. It was as though he was praying instead of thinking. Why didn't he _TELL_ ATC what he needed, and _request_ that ATC contact the Coast Guard and despatch a helo to his location? Why didn't he take _command_ of his situation? Because he was clueless. So his DE was to blame for granting him an airman certificate? |
#46
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Larry Dighera wrote:
That's why I have considerably more respect for those Usenet posters who provide accurate personal identification information, and shun those who post anonymously through a mail-to-news gateway. Accountability fosters respect. I am not sure if you are making a general comment or are specifically directing that at me. If the latter, let me assure you that I only post through Google while I am at my "non-home daytime location." Newsgroup ports are blocked at that location, yet I still have to get my aviation newsgroup fix. Additionally, I stopped posting my last name in the news reader FROM field years ago after I was on the receiving end of a rather personal attack by a newsgroup troll. Regulars here know my last name because it is posted in Jay's Rogue's Gallery. My contributions to this group, which aren't all that spectacular, do not need a last name attached and if you don't respect that, then too bad. Seriously, though, you know that past NTSB statistics are slanted towards the scenario of a pilot failing to ensure adequete fuel before a flight. No. I didn't know that. Are you able to cite any evidence of that sort of NTSB bias? OK, first off, let me apologize for using the word "slanted." I didn't mean to imply any NTSB wrong-doing. I simply meant that looking over the accident reports, one can clearly see that there are many, many more GA aircraft accidents due to improper fuel planning than there are due to a mechanical fuel loss. Search the accident archives for "Fuel Exhaustion" and choose those cases that have a probable cause. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp I queried the last 10 years, then started pulling up every report in the resulting set to read the probable cause. I hope you can accept 10 years worth of the NTSB's 35 or so years of online history as a valid statistical sample. The news media certainly accepts a far lower percentage for their political polls. Within the last 10 years, there were 950 probable cause accident reports returned with those key words in them. A few reports were not at all related to fuel exhaustion despite being returned, so I subtracted those out, leaving about 946. In the reports I read, there were basically three types of fuel exhaustion: Pilot's failure to properly determine fuel usage for flight, pilot failing to switch tanks, and mechanical cause. Since we are basically disagreeing on mechanical versus pilot error, I lumped fuel mismanagement with improper fuel planning, seeing that these two are pilot error and not mechanical. After a bit over an hour I counted about 600 or so that listed the pilot's improper fuel planning (or similar words to that affect). I stopped counting at that point, seeing that I reached almost 2/3s of all fuel exhaustion accidents were attributed to a pilot's improper fuel planning. I encourage you to conduct the same research. How is that illuminating? It is illuminating to me that a low-time pilot was able to communicate to ATC that he was out of fuel while still in the descent. In listening to the ATC recording of this accident, the pilot seemed to be pretty certain that there was no remaining fuel on board. I do not see how a GA pilot who is confident in his fuel supply (which would be any pilot who properly planned consumption, fueled the aircraft, then monitored fuel usage en route) could conclude with enough confidence to broadcast to ATC that the engine stopped due to fuel exhaustion. There are many other reasons an engine can stop besides fuel exhaustion. Look, I am not saying with certainty that this pilot failed to properly plan fuel consumption. The NTSB will determine the cause. I am merely stating that the fact that the pilot knew he was out of fuel was interesting to me and the NTSB accident archives support the probability that a fuel exhaustion accident is caused by improper planning, not an unexpected fuel loss. If his actual fuel burn exceeded his planned fuel burn, it would indicate fuel leaking via one route or another. Hmmm... that's not what I learned during the cross country phase of my initial training. I was taught that actual fuel burn exceeding planned fuel burn is attributed to improper leaning or stronger-than-forecasted headwinds. -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#47
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"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:
You ought to try Real Alternative. It'll allow you to play those .ram files without all the spyware. Very cool. Thanks! -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#48
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"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message .com... Matt Barrow wrote: Here's just a few: 1) Poor fuel planning and continuing on with low fuel from Michigan side. 2) Water crossing 3) No floatation devices If he had pants on, he had floatation gear. Get someone to show you how to knot the legs, then inflate the pants by swinging it over your head from above and behind you to in front of you in one swift movement. The trapped air will then hold you up for quite a while like water wings.... and they can always be reinflated ad nauseum. His biggest risk was hypothermia. If he'd only had a light.... I always carry a waterproof light with me in my car and when I fly. Always. At this time of the year neither would have done much good. He probably had 15 minutes at best. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN VE |
#49
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"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message .com... Peter R. wrote: Mortimer wrote: His biggest risk was hypothermia. If he'd only had a light.... A light? As long as we are wishing here, if only he wore a wetsuit and life preserver equipped with a McMurdo FastFind Plus PLB and a flashing beacon. My thought was that a light would stand out like a sore thumb five miles from shore in the dark. Him surviving was a function of time; he could swim. For at best a couple of minutes and probably not even that long. A light would not necessarialy stand out. Unless you have been there at this time of the year you have no idea how hostile an environment it is. |
#50
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Jose wrote:
Granted there probably wasn't enough time, as the plane was already filling with water... Furthermore, it appears that the officer at first had a hard time hearing the pilot and was confused when the pilot stated that he was in "Michigan, Lake Michigan." It sounded to me like the officer responded by thinking the pilot was in the state, not in the lake. -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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