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#21
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It does happen. Usually a factor of traffic congestion with really bad
weather. If they accept you, they've GOT to handle you... but they're off the hook if they don't accept the hand-off from the previous facility. It's a real-time, dynamic situation... ten minutes later they might have been able to work you in. Happened to me once, flying to Oshkosh from SE Michigan. Chicago Center refused to take the hand-off from Muskegon approach. Muskegeon held onto me as long as they could, and finally gave me a heading of 180 to keep me in their airspace. I told them in no uncertain terms that I didn't want to fly Lake Michigan lengthwise. Fortunately, it was VMC so I cancelled IFR and went on my merry way. Rich Mike Granby wrote: I take off, and everything is fine, until I'm headed southbound from the HGR VOR, when the Washington Center controller calls me and says "Err, 8096J, Potomac Approach is refusing to handle you, say intentions." So now, here I am, in the air with two small kids on board, and being turned back towards what was, a while back at least, some nasty weather. I was amazed that they gave me a clearance for that route, and then wouldn't honor it! Comments??? |
#22
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Squawk 7600 for one minute, then switch to 7700 for the remainder of the
flight. Fly the route as NORDO to your clearance limit. |
#23
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On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:14:06 GMT, john smith wrote:
Squawk 7600 for one minute, then switch to 7700 for the remainder of the flight. Fly the route as NORDO to your clearance limit. It will be interesting to see other peoples responses on this bizarre suggestion *smile*. Why bother with 7700 when you are already declaring yourself NORDO with 7600? I would suspect with you on 7600, that ATC will keep your airspace clear, and no emergency would exist, thus no need for 7700. Allen |
#24
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john smith wrote:
Squawk 7600 for one minute, then switch to 7700 for the remainder of the flight. Fly the route as NORDO to your clearance limit. Ignoring for the moment that switching from 7600 to 7700 is the incorrect procedure for comm failure, it sounds like you're advocating deliberately pretending to have comm failure so you can fly the route you want. I assume you understand 14 CFR 91.3: ----- Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency. (c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator. ----- Let's see how this plays out. After you land, you call up FSS to cancel your IFR flight plan, and the guy asks you what your emergency was. You say, "I didn't like the route they gave me, so I turned off my radios and continued NORDO". I can only imagine how the conversation would go after that, but I'm sure it wouldn't be a very happy experience for you. If they want to turn you back, and you truly believe that heading in the direction they want to send you would be unsafe due to weather, say, "unable" and stick to it. You may get to hold until they can accomodate you, and that may be a long time. Deciding to land at the nearest usable airport may be your best choice if the hold time is extensive. Did ATC do you a dis-service by giving you the clearance you wanted and then refusing to allow you to fly it once you were in the air? Probably, but that's life. |
#25
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"A Lieberman" wrote in message .. . If the weather was behind you like Mike described, and you can't proceed forward, that in my opinion would be an emergency. He couldn't go further on, and had to retrace his steps which would put have put him into bad weather. After being told he couldn't go through Potomac approach he asked for a hold at HGR VOR to consider hip options. If holding at HGR keeps him clear of the nasty weather then a landing at Hagerstown Regional should also keep him clear of it. Again, if the weather was behind him and he couldn't proceed further on, being turned back into nasty weather (his words, not mine) can be considered an emergency. Why would those be the only options? |
#26
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"Jose" wrote in message ... "I intend to fly my clearance. What are yours?" Hmmph. An odd thing to say after you've been told that's not an option. Ok, might not put it quite that way, but I have a clearance and the alternative of flying through thunderstorms is not acceptable. I'm sure the controller understands that. That's why he asked you for your intentions after informing you that your previous clearance was not acceptable. I would refuse to fly through thunderstorms to make them happy. Why would they find happiness in your flight through a thunderstorm? If I had spherics I would have more options, but blind and knowing what's probably out there, I would have solid grounds for saying "unable" and letting them sort it out later. You'd be unable to do anything other than your previous clearance? How could that be? |
#27
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"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... OK. I always figured that the route was "pre sold" end to end before being issued. I've gotten partial route clearances before and assumed that was what happened when they couldn't get the entire route approved. I'd have never guessed that getting a full route clearance left open this sort of possibility. That seems bizarre to me. "Pre-selling" your clearance end-to-end before issuing it would create a pretty inflexible system, one that could handle only a fraction of the traffic it does now. What if a thunderstorm cell popped up on your route. You'd probably like to deviate around it. So you ask ATC to deviate 20 degrees left of course and the response is, "Unable, that will put you into airspace that has been pre-sold to another IFR flight." I don't think you'd be happy with that response. |
#28
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"Rich" wrote in message ... It does happen. Usually a factor of traffic congestion with really bad weather. If they accept you, they've GOT to handle you... but they're off the hook if they don't accept the hand-off from the previous facility. It's a real-time, dynamic situation... ten minutes later they might have been able to work you in. Happened to me once, flying to Oshkosh from SE Michigan. Chicago Center refused to take the hand-off from Muskegon approach. Muskegeon held onto me as long as they could, and finally gave me a heading of 180 to keep me in their airspace. I told them in no uncertain terms that I didn't want to fly Lake Michigan lengthwise. Fortunately, it was VMC so I cancelled IFR and went on my merry way. Was that during the EAA convention? If it was, did you have a reservation? |
#29
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"john smith" wrote in message .. . Squawk 7600 for one minute, then switch to 7700 for the remainder of the flight. Fly the route as NORDO to your clearance limit. That might work if the weather was bad where you were at the time of the "radio failure" and all the way to your destination. If the failure occurred in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions were encountered after the failure, you'd have to continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable. What if the weather was IMC and others tried that dodge as well? What if some of those other flights conflicted with yours? ATC can't provide separation, you're all NORDO. Squawking 7700 hasn't been part of the NORDO procedure for some years now, by the way. |
#30
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"A Lieberman" wrote in message ... Why bother with 7700 when you are already declaring yourself NORDO with 7600? That used to be the NORDO procedure, but the 7700 squawk was dropped some fifteen years or so ago. |
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