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FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 5th 15, 10:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 4:28:33 PM UTC-4, wrote:
You get the glider symbol and relative altitude. My experience was actually an aural warning first - " Traffic, one o'clock high". Because my eyes were outside the cockpit. There was no reason to look at the scope.

XC


This agrees with my experience also.
"Traffic 12 o'clock high" is all I need. I had no reason to look inside at all.
UH
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  #22  
Old August 5th 15, 11:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

I wonder how the stealth mode advocates would feel about a compromise: You can see gliders at any range, with relative altitude, but no climb information.

The anti-stealth sentiment (mine, I must admit) wants more situational awareness than stealth allows; we don't want to find out about other gliders barreling down a cloudstreet the other way at less than a mile, when a collision is imminent.

What I hear from stealth advocates seems to be that seeing actual climb rates is the biggest objection. Knowing gliders are out there at greater distances seems not to be too big a deal.

Compromise?

John Cochrane BB
  #23  
Old August 5th 15, 11:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

What is "situational awareness" exactly in this context? I've heard it used by two different people. My understanding is that Flarm Warnings are not impacted by stealth mode; the same algorithms are used to determine threats, including fast moving threats from other gliders (e.g. head on at high speed). I can see for sure that Flarm was still picking up gliders at the typical ranges I see in "regular" mode based on the attached Flarm Range Analyzer results from my August 2 flight. Average detection range was 7..5km based on a pretty large sample of over 3100 points.

P3





On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:06:42 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
I wonder how the stealth mode advocates would feel about a compromise: You can see gliders at any range, with relative altitude, but no climb information.

The anti-stealth sentiment (mine, I must admit) wants more situational awareness than stealth allows; we don't want to find out about other gliders barreling down a cloudstreet the other way at less than a mile, when a collision is imminent.

What I hear from stealth advocates seems to be that seeing actual climb rates is the biggest objection. Knowing gliders are out there at greater distances seems not to be too big a deal.

Compromise?

John Cochrane BB


  #24  
Old August 5th 15, 11:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
What is "situational awareness" exactly in this context?


Seeing other gliders on the moving map display, finding them visually, and then working to avoid them before alarms go off.

I find this the biggest benefit of Flarm and the way it works best, especially head on traffic under cloudstreets, side to side traffic going my way under cloudstreets, or side to side traffic going to the same cloud or gaggle.

If I had to wait for the big red alarm, then work out where the glider is -- converging at 200 knots under a cloudstreet, or maybe to the side or below where I can't see it -- and work out an escape plan that didn't put me in the path of another glider that wasn't showing up either because of stealth mode, might be a challenge.

I'd rather have a very quick look at the instrument to see who is nearby and if I am missing anyone visually, then keep far enough away that collision warnings don't show up in the first place.

For that, I don't need climb rates. I don't need altitude to be accurate, except above vs. below which must be quite accurate. So if it's climb rate displays that bug you guys, I'm happy to give those up.

John Cochrane
  #25  
Old August 6th 15, 12:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:06:42 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
I wonder how the stealth mode advocates would feel about a compromise: You can see gliders at any range, with relative altitude, but no climb information.

The anti-stealth sentiment (mine, I must admit) wants more situational awareness than stealth allows; we don't want to find out about other gliders barreling down a cloudstreet the other way at less than a mile, when a collision is imminent.

What I hear from stealth advocates seems to be that seeing actual climb rates is the biggest objection. Knowing gliders are out there at greater distances seems not to be too big a deal.

Compromise?

John Cochrane BB


My idea of compromise is anything that provides awareness of imminent collision while providing no useful tactical information.
If you can see gliders ahead, you know where they think or know the lift is and you can chase them. Adding climb rate and altitude only makes it more useful, attractive and compelling in use.
I flew in Stealth at Mifflin and found it completely satisfactory dealing with oncoming traffic in the ridge(closing speeds 200+).
UH
  #26  
Old August 6th 15, 12:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

For club and group flying, the full Flarm display (with leech mode) is terrific, although I suspect having climb rate information for gliders more than a short distance away might not be that useful in the west. I can't tell you how many times I've flown over to join friends reporting stellar climbs to arrive too low to connect with what was probably a rising bubble!

Otherwise, I thing John Cochrane is correct - position without climb info would enhance safety and provide
little useful tactical advantage.

Mike
  #27  
Old August 6th 15, 01:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

The most advantage I have seen from one of these devices was with vintage gear. The usual cloud street, fast head on scenario. Worked great!
The old OzFLARM gives indication with a two-color LED circle for horizontal relationship/distance and three LEDs for vertical relationship. Collision potential gives an alarm sound. Primitive, but effective.
For reference, a video of another OzFLARM with collision warnings when we moved close:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgxqWPiR6lE
Verbal audio warnings in the latest versions are an excellent addition to that.
Lately using audio only, so to me stealth mode sounds great.
Jim
  #28  
Old August 6th 15, 01:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 4:31:24 PM UTC-7, wrote:
My idea of compromise is anything that provides awareness of imminent collision while providing no useful tactical information.
If you can see gliders ahead, you know where they think or know the lift is and you can chase them. Adding climb rate and altitude only makes it more useful, attractive and compelling in use.
I flew in Stealth at Mifflin and found it completely satisfactory dealing with oncoming traffic in the ridge(closing speeds 200+).
UH


Hank,

When you say "if you can see gliders ahead" do you mean with Flarm or with your eyes? Is it a problem that pilots can see gliders ahead of them visually and use it for tactical purposes?

It has always seemed a bit unfair to me that the guys with 20/10 vision have a tactical advantage over the guys who can't correct to better than 20/25.. I've found that Flarm levels the playing field a bit so that us guys with crappy vision aren't at such a disadvantage. Flarm really isn't very useful tactically beyond about three to four miles - which is about what the eagle-eyed guys can see. Of course the eagle-eyed guys might like that the bat-eyed are at a disadvantage.

9B
  #29  
Old August 6th 15, 01:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

Leaving aside bats vs. eagles for a minute. Here are my experiences with recent contests I've flown. Take it for what it's worth:

Flarm tactical uses: 1) Pre-start gaggles. With a 5 mile radius cylinder, it's not unusual for gaggles to form several miles apart. Flarm immediately tipped me off to a big gaggle forming outside the gate in better air. Spent a lot of heads-down time keeping an eye on that one to see how many, how much higher, etc. 2) Line on the first leg out of the gate. Are a bunch of guys deviating left of course line? Right? This was huge at Dannsville last year. 3) Anyone out there? Anyone? Several times at Mifflin and at Dannsville Flarm showed other gliders on course when I was alone (late starts trying to catch the early starters). Just knowing that there are other gliders not that far ahead is useful information in and of itself.

Bottom line is that I spent a lot more time looking at the "scope" when Flarm was allowed as a tactical tool than I did when it was purely collision avoidance. While I agree you can't use Flarm to lead you to the better thermals, it absolutely helps you keep in touch with the pack, especially when coursline changes matter (jumping streets, aiming for different parts of an AAT cylinder, etc.) or when you want to keep tabs on the big gaggles (either on course or pre-start) .

P3


On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:17:13 PM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 4:31:24 PM UTC-7, wrote:
My idea of compromise is anything that provides awareness of imminent collision while providing no useful tactical information.
If you can see gliders ahead, you know where they think or know the lift is and you can chase them. Adding climb rate and altitude only makes it more useful, attractive and compelling in use.
I flew in Stealth at Mifflin and found it completely satisfactory dealing with oncoming traffic in the ridge(closing speeds 200+).
UH


Hank,

When you say "if you can see gliders ahead" do you mean with Flarm or with your eyes? Is it a problem that pilots can see gliders ahead of them visually and use it for tactical purposes?

It has always seemed a bit unfair to me that the guys with 20/10 vision have a tactical advantage over the guys who can't correct to better than 20/25. I've found that Flarm levels the playing field a bit so that us guys with crappy vision aren't at such a disadvantage. Flarm really isn't very useful tactically beyond about three to four miles - which is about what the eagle-eyed guys can see. Of course the eagle-eyed guys might like that the bat-eyed are at a disadvantage.


  #30  
Old August 6th 15, 02:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
XC
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

By not having any useful or interesting targets to look at on the screen I found my eyes were outside more often. I must admit I look out and up at clouds rather than out and on the horizon, scanning for traffic. Here I found FLARM very useful. When an audible alert went off I was able to go right to it rather than refocus at a new distance.

As for the competitive aspects, the reason I find competitions interesting is to see how my soaring skills stack up against other pilots. By that I mean which human can best fly like a bird.

Yes, the top guy often would be the same but I think the full use of FLARM as a tactical instrument would not yield a valid result through the middle of the score sheet.

XC
 




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