A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #191  
Old September 10th 15, 03:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 918
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 3:37:22 PM UTC+3, GB wrote:
It takes a village to launch a sailplane, a pair of sneakers to launch a PG.


Not a whole village :-)

There are many many times I've wanted to fly on a day that the club is not "open". All I've needed is a tow pilot. Two is enough to push the tow plane and glider out of the hanger, get them onto the runway, and do a wing-down takeoff using the radio for "take up slack" and "all out" signals.

There is the question of who does the hookup. I guess the safest is for either pilot to do it before the tug starts its engine, but it's a lot quicker for the glider pilot to do it before getting in, with the towplane warming up just off to the side facing crosswind, with plenty of slack rope.
Ads
  #192  
Old September 10th 15, 04:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,003
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

Folken,

Amazing post. Great insight. I agree with you.

Paragliding is cleaning "traditional soaring's" clocks in much the same way kiteboarding and multihulls are exceeding traditional sailboats and yacht clubs. They are generally younger, more agile and more free.

Sean
  #193  
Old September 10th 15, 04:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
gb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 11:08:22 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Folken,

Amazing post. Great insight. I agree with you.

Paragliding is cleaning "traditional soaring's" clocks in much the same way kiteboarding and multihulls are exceeding traditional sailboats and yacht clubs. They are generally younger, more agile and more free.

Sean

I've found the PG population is older and better off then sailplane pilots assume. Maybe it is just this part of the country, lots of 50, 60 year olds, slightly less 30 year olds, 40 year olds seem to be the rarest, probably divorces taking up all their resources. No real young dude types. Guessing most PG pilots that I've met could afford a sailplane if they wanted one.. Number one factor for being a soaring pilot(of anything) is time.
  #194  
Old September 10th 15, 06:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

Something like the PADI model sounds very promising. I've often
wondered why I could not simply drop in to an FBO (Fixed Base Operator)
and rent an airplane or glider and go. There's always a checkout
requiring stalls, slow flight, traffic patterns, landings, ad. nauseum.
I would think simply showing my log book and licenses would suffice.
Imagine going to the Hertz/Avis counter to rent a car and being told
you'd have to demonstrate parallel parking!

I know... It's the insurance companies.

On 9/10/2015 6:49 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 2:37:22 PM UTC+2, GB wrote:Someadvertised prices are much higher then experienced PG pilots pay. You can keep yourself in good gear for same or less then club dues(unfortunately PG students do get bled.) Price aside, I think it is more the autonomy of self launch. No one wants to say it but we all know there are a lot of cranky miserable people in sailplane villages. If you don't get on with your local sailplane club all the fun is gone. If you don't get on with your local PG club, as long as you are waivered up and meet local rating rules you don't have to deal with them much.
I finally found that EGU Paper. Its the results of a 2012 workshop on how to retain, train and future development of gliding. I think it should be circulated a lot more widely.

http://www.egu-info.org/dwnl/EGU%20P...%2020122.p df

If you are short on time, read section 3 "Gliding is the Answer ‐ But what is the Question?" Why Gliding? Steps towards creating a Brand.

As you correctly state the club dependency is a big problem for one particular potential demographic: the middle aged pilot.

Although he/she has income, he has little time to dedicate, but still wants to fly.

What the author suggests is to create a brand like PADI for scuba divers. Its a common acronym which stand for certification, equipment, services available from a PADI certified organisation. If you are certified for a certain PADI level, its clear what you can and cannot do. Its clear what equipment you can operate and what your level of experience is.

It basically would allow you to come to an airport and rent a glider. Without membership in a particular club. If you are self-launch certified and a glider with that capability is available, you can operate on your own.






  #195  
Old March 22nd 16, 07:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Craig Funston
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 208
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 9:35:07 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Something like the PADI model sounds very promising.* I've often
wondered why I could not simply drop in to an FBO (Fixed Base
Operator) and rent an airplane or glider and go.* There's always a
checkout requiring stalls, slow flight, traffic patterns, landings,
ad. nauseum.* I would think simply showing my log book and licenses
would suffice.* Imagine going to the Hertz/Avis counter to rent a
car and being told you'd have to demonstrate parallel parking!



I know...* It's the insurance companies.




On 9/10/2015 6:49 AM,
wrote:



On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 2:37:22 PM UTC+2, GB wrote:Someadvertised prices are much higher then experienced PG pilots pay. You can keep yourself in good gear for same or less then club dues(unfortunately PG students do get bled.) Price aside, I think it is more the autonomy of self launch. No one wants to say it but we all know there are a lot of cranky miserable people in sailplane villages. If you don't get on with your local sailplane club all the fun is gone. If you don't get on with your local PG club, as long as you are waivered up and meet local rating rules you don't have to deal with them much.


I finally found that EGU Paper. Its the results of a 2012 workshop on how to retain, train and future development of gliding. I think it should be circulated a lot more widely.

http://www.egu-info.org/dwnl/EGU%20P...%2020122.p df

If you are short on time, read section 3 "Gliding is the Answer ‐ But what is the Question?" Why Gliding? Steps towards creating a Brand.

As you correctly state the club dependency is a big problem for one particular potential demographic: the middle aged pilot.

Although he/she has income, he has little time to dedicate, but still wants to fly.

What the author suggests is to create a brand like PADI for scuba divers. Its a common acronym which stand for certification, equipment, services available from a PADI certified organisation. If you are certified for a certain PADI level, its clear what you can and cannot do. Its clear what equipment you can operate and what your level of experience is.

It basically would allow you to come to an airport and rent a glider. Without membership in a particular club. If you are self-launch certified and a glider with that capability is available, you can operate on your own.


Resurrecting an old thread about inspiring pilots to take up Cross-Country. Come to Ephrata, WA in June and join us for our annual XC camp / mentoring session. http://www.thedustup.info/
  #196  
Old December 20th 16, 11:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Christopher Schrader
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 5:03:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 2:32:07 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 9:57:15 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:

Sean, look at a map of the US and of England. Take a guess at the density of junior pilots. The reason they can get the numbers (aside from a much more social club environment, I agree) is that they are a lot closer to the racing venue - If every junior pilot in the US could get to a Junior contest with a club or loaned glider within a day's drive, we would see the same or better numbers!

And you are getting a bit tiring, up on your soap box. NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO FLY XC, MUCH LESS RACE! Most of our long time club members, including private owners of some nice glass, have no desire to stress out flying XC.. And they are perfectly happy (and pretty good pilots).

Personally, I agree with you that XC and racing is most fun in soaring, along with acro, intro rides for grandmas who have never flown, end of day sled rides with the wife in glassy air as the sun goes down - hmm, I guess it's all good!

Oh, and "low approaches, circling to land..." ;^)

My solution? It's the social aspect, not the flying. THAT'S THE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EURO AND MOST US CLUBS! We need nice, appealing facilities more than we need nicer gliders; we need clubhouses with bars (or even restaurants), weekend sleeping accommodations, nice areas to park the RVs, things for the spouses and kids to do - When the locals stop by to sit in the shade, sip a cold one, and watch the pretty shiny gliders fly, then you are on the right track!

Kirk
66


Steve Bennis, our mentor at Middletown NY, took me aside one day 30 years ago or so and asked me if I wanted to know the most important thing to keep people coming to our soaring operation.
Not stupid, said tell me the secret.
He did:
Drum roll..................................
Picnics!
The message was that the social environment is very important to capturing and retaining members or customers, in addition to a stimulating flying environment.
UH


This is very true. We had 4 picnics this year and it has done amazing things for morale. Santa Claus even brought the club a nice 6.5qt crockpot so on busy weekend days the members can grab a hot dog, chips, and a soda, drop a couple bucks in the donation bucket and know they wont go hungry spending the day with their friends at the airfield. I want to thank the guys at Thermal Research and Kendall Gliderport circa 1985 for that (my brothers and I ate a lot of hot dogs at the gliderport growing up as kids). In any case, Costco and Sam's Club can make this an affordable proposition for any club.. What's required is a decent clubhouse kitchen and on that front I'm proud we re-modeled our clubhouse this year. We may even start doing pancake breakfasts next winter (once we get hot water installed) just to give everyone an excuse to get together when its snowing outside (we did put in heat and insulation). But without further digressing, you are absolutely right. You can see the excitement in peoples eyes when they come out to the field now.. Picnics, BBQ's, and other themed outdoor parties do a lot to bring people together and get people flying again! And more importantly, the social environment is the key to progress. Unfriendly clubs tend not to keep their new members around for very long. Conversely, clubs whose members take the time to make their new (and existing) members always feel welcome, extend a hand, or sometimes just a healthy shot of encouragement, get this small investment returned to them in spades. Usually, it results in untold volunteer support that you can't always put a price on but nor could a club survive without. Lastly, there's Grinch among all of us. My advice is don't let the resident grouch sit around and poison the well. Circumvent the grouch and steer the newcomer in a positive direction and the grouch won't have anyone left to complain to but himself.

- Chris Schrader, Sandhill Soaring Club, near Ann Arbor, MI
  #197  
Old December 21st 16, 05:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Casey[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 188
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

My $0.02 from a newly mint pilot aspiring for XC.

First of all I think there is a unique internal fortitude that glider pilots have. And let me also say, I think it’s even more so for the XC pilot. I have met pilots from varying skill and experience that some gave me the impression that they were terrified of XC. Being a student gave me a unique advantage of asking questions versus someone with experience would probably not have asked those types of questions I had asked. I also realize that individuals have their own comfort level. Now with that said, I think that internal fortitude can be broken down into two areas; churn and retention of when pilots either do not seek XC or the student drops out. Either way, it affects long-term retention.

I do not know if there are two ideas or paths to solo but I was on the path of training to know almost all there is about soaring prior to solo. I think I would have stopped training if I did not know the end game of XC. I think a student should solo as soon as practical with the guidance that much more training is ahead. The student will discover more quickly if they have the internal fortitude to continue. To over-train a student for solo creates a long path for later discouragement and only ties up club time. The only advantage seems to be the clubs increase in revenue or CFI’s log time.

Now for XC: My last CFI said if I did not XC and only glided around the field that I would eventually give up soaring. This is from a well-known, high hr, high student CFI.
From his past experience as well as my observation of the millennia’s and Gen-X, I think as others have mentioned that exposure to XC from the beginning of training is key. I do think the internal fortitude required of experienced or seasoned pilots for XC is greater. Or put another way, the older the pilot the longer it takes to break the home field barrier.
I could be in this later category, however, I also have not completed my Silver Badge. I could have attempted XC and landed out by now, but (1) I know the hassle of retrieve of my heavy glider, (2) gaining more comfort with new vario and GPS, (3) just enjoying soaring around, (4) realize I need to work on perfect thermaling skills, (5) would like booming conditions for first XC to ensure success. I currently do a lot of scratching and only do this around home field and would not attempt during XC. But with average cloud base of 3k and average glide at 2-2.5K, that does not give much room to travel far and have a good margin for land out.

Oh, another observation which could be an obstacle to XC is many gliders trailers I’ve seen at clubs I would not pull down the road. Either the pilot is experienced enough to get back home, or does not care about leaving area, or is older or out of shape and does not want to deal with retrieve. Trailer care and upkeep should be talked about more at clubs and with students. If a student never hears anything about trailer maintenance then acquires own trailer, I think they are more likely to neglect. As well as if they see neglected trailers about, they may follow suit out of sub-consciousness.

Once I have achieved my silver badge, I would like to enter a XC comp. And I think the badges are all a pilot needs for motivation prior to first comp. I do like the idea of team comps where an experience pilot has two less experienced pilots to bring along. I also like the idea of fun comps, and fun fly in’s that have an element of XC. I also think a yearly training camp/comp made up of 2 place gliders would be fun and very beneficial. One of the biggest obstacles I see to camps and comps is proximity. Within 300 miles would be ideal, but at least each region. If one compares any other sports, soaring has less comps.

I was fortunate to have been able to visit 6 different facilities to soar at after acquiring my ticket. The people I have met and the views, and tips have been great. I’m at the point where I’m acquiring skill, and do not foresee myself as CFI or top comp pilot, but I hope I can pass something to others to help our sport.
  #198  
Old December 21st 16, 06:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,386
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

Great observations, Casey.
Jim
  #199  
Old December 21st 16, 08:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 418
Default How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On 12/21/2016 10:39 AM, JS wrote:
Great observations, Casey.
Jim


Agreed, and FWIW here's one glider pilot's version of that grade school
english exercise, "What I did Over My Summer Vacation" entitled...

"How I 'Got Into' XC soaring"

I include my experience here strictly by way of noting that at the outset I
had no clues about, knowledge of, or 'plans for using' my PP/Glider rating. I
was simply one of those kids thoroughly enamored with flight, and who - upon
graduating college - happened to bumble into a sailplane pilot (my office
mate) who invited me to that side of the shared field before I'd had a chance
to make a cold call over at the power FBO. That was in 1972. It got me into
the air sooner, at less cash-flow. I never did obtain a power license, and I'm
still a flying nut.

I should also add that, despite 'being a hardcore flying nut' I was already
having slight problems imagining my power flying future beyond the license:
$100 hamburgers forever? aerobatics? ???. Nut that I was I was already
wondering if/how fight might retain its imperative power over me.

My soaring introduction/lessons obviated similar wonderings ever arising.
Somewhen during basic instruction, I learned 'that XC existed,' and, that 'I
would be expected to do it...someday.' IOW, XC was to soaring, as breathing
was to life. The way it was presented made perfectly good sense back then,
despite me being 'relatively normal' in that my second question about soaring
was, "What do you do when you can't find lift?"

My (sole) instructor 'taught me all I needed to basically know about selecting
good fields,' in a few sentences during my ab-initio training (probably mostly
to shut me up). I accidentally/unintentionally/successfully put his summary
knowledge to use within a month of obtaining my certificate, and exactly one
week before I, my instructor, and his other newly-licensed partner in our
1-26, went to a 3-day fun contest, whereat I completed my day's O&R task at
the blazing speed of 12 mph (the 1-26 winner that day averaging ~30). My
instructor landed out on his day (other 1-26s finished). We each had a blast,
and over the course of those two weeks, every significant and fundamental
question related to the sensibility-of/risks-accompanying XC that may have
been fermenting beneath my fevered brow, had vanished forever.

IOW, XC *was* a Big Deal, but in ways Completely Unrelated to my initial,
self-preservatory, ignorance-based concerns. Looking back, it was undoubtedly
then that for me the sport set its lifetime hook.

Bob W.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A proposal to increase membership, cross-country pilots, competitors,and world champions (USA). Fox Two[_2_] Soaring 72 August 24th 14 07:06 PM
Cross-Country Soaring by Reichmann - Back in Stock Paul Remde Soaring 2 June 9th 11 06:07 AM
Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp Mike the Strike Soaring 20 December 17th 10 03:03 PM
Cross Country Soaring by Reichmann bobcaldwell Soaring 6 November 12th 07 12:34 PM
Cross Country the main focus of soaring? mat Redsell Soaring 77 October 18th 04 10:40 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.