A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Thermal right, land left



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old March 10th 04, 03:34 AM
BTIZ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a thermal... unless
of course the thermal was strong enough to cause "an upset".. and then they
would still not recognize it as a thermal but a "wind gust" or even worse.."
an air pocket "..

I did not know air had pockets... LOL

BT

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
I've always just flown the direction of the lifted wing for
the thermal. Sure, you could probably just do them all to
the right, and it wouldn't make much difference,
but if you ever competed, the extra falling out of the thermal
and the confusion when joining others would be
new.

I personally don't like thermalling right turns, because of
my power experience (left is best!), but when I look at my traces,
I'm about 50/50.

The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is
because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in
side-by-side seating. In low vis circle-to-lands, it's nice to
be on the correct side of the cockpit...

In article ,
John wrote:
This past year, I have stuck to a policy of making all thermal turns
to the right only.

The airport I fly out of has left turns in the pattern. My idea is I
am developing the habit of turning slow to the right only. All left
turns are made at higher pattern speeds.

With the condition I am just recreationally flying locally (don't have
to be that efficient and can burn a turn to center each thermal by
going the "wrong way"), I found that thermaling for a while to the
left, then landing made the high speed left turns in the pattern feel
a bit "different". This was especially noticiable after not flying
for awhile. The result was babying the plane thru the turns instead
of "bank and yank".

Does this make sense for low-time pilots, or pilots who take time off
from flying occasionally? Seems like if you have not flown for
awhile, then thermal a few dozen slow left turns, you would naturally
tend to prefer slow left turns in the pattern. That is what you were
just praticing to do, after all.

Is there safety benefits to thermaling only to the right, and landing
only with left turns? Will a pilot develop habits or preference for
slow speed right turns and high speed left turns?

John



--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA



Ads
  #12  
Old March 10th 04, 03:47 AM
Jim Vincent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma


I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only
works about half the time.

Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the lift
of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen to run
into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying really
helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning into
the lifted wing would take you into the lift.

Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left wing
and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you woud
turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be to
turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the thermal.

So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more how you
respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ

  #13  
Old March 10th 04, 04:12 AM
Shaber CJ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is
because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in
side-by-side seating.


Really. I fly helicopters with the pilot seat on the right, Bells and
helicopters where the pilot seat is on the left, MD's. We do not change our
patterns depending on how the seat is loctated. The helicopter is to avoid the
flow of fixed wing traffic, plus we do not need to fly the same type of pattern
as a fixed wing aircraft, that is the reason for the type of patterns flown by
helicopters.

Craig "can turn either right or left" Shaber
  #14  
Old March 10th 04, 04:47 AM
BTIZ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

We had a helicopter gumming up the traffic pattern last weekend.. his
traffic pattern was about twice the extended downwind and long final that
the tow plane and gliders were using.

I think he got 1/2 the clue when a glider called and asked.. are you on
downwind or cross country.. I'm not going that far from the airport for base
leg, so I'm turning base behind you.

And then on his next trip around the pattern, the tow plane called and
stated, "Helicopter xyy, if your going that far out on final, I'll turn
behind you and be down and clear before you can get back to the runway.",
the other 1/2 of the clue.

Granted it was student and instructor in the helicopter. But I know students
in airplanes that don't log cross country on down wind.

Helicopters here don't have the advantage of flying the "opposite direction
pattern" to avoid other aircraft. We have parallel runways, and always have
traffic turning either right or left for the right or left runway. Power on
one side, gliders on the other, and the tow plane shares the glider
operations.

All uncontrolled and it works out well for the most part, until other
powered aircraft try to mix it up in the glider pattern, and they forget who
has right of way. But that happens mostly with transients, the local pilots
know.

BT

BT

The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is
because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in
side-by-side seating.


Really. I fly helicopters with the pilot seat on the right, Bells and
helicopters where the pilot seat is on the left, MD's. We do not change

our
patterns depending on how the seat is loctated. The helicopter is to

avoid the
flow of fixed wing traffic, plus we do not need to fly the same type of

pattern
as a fixed wing aircraft, that is the reason for the type of patterns

flown by
helicopters.

Craig "can turn either right or left" Shaber



  #15  
Old March 10th 04, 06:45 AM
Mark James Boyd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

No offense to good ol' Tom, but the lift and sink that I have
encountered feel different. The sinking part of the thermal before
the lift of the wing feels turbulent to me. It also seems to go
from more sink to less sink. This is the opposite of a lift,
where it goes from less lift to more lift.

So when I feel a roll that goes from a high roll rate to a low roll rate,
I am in the turbulent sink before the core of the thermal, and
when I go from a low roll rate to a high roll rate, I know that
wing is entering the core of the thermal and since it is the
lifted wing, I turn into it, and into the thermal.

I didn't even realise this is what I do and feel until
I verbalized it just then. I must say that this "feel"
has done very, very well for me. When I look at my
traces, I turn immediately into the thermal and circle
there effectively with little shift (no 270
degree turns or major corrections to the other side).
This seems to work quite well, and consistently.

Some of this was learned because I flew quite a few days in
perfectly clear air. Other than the feel of the stick and
the pitch and roll, I had no immediate indications of lift.
The vario was just too coarse.

In article ,
Jim Vincent wrote:
some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma


I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only
works about half the time.

Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the lift
of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen to run
into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying really
helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning into
the lifted wing would take you into the lift.

Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left wing
and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you woud
turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be to
turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the thermal.

So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more how you
respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ



--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA
  #16  
Old March 10th 04, 06:53 AM
Mark James Boyd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Shaber CJ wrote:
The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is
because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in
side-by-side seating.


Really. I fly helicopters with the pilot seat on the right, Bells and
helicopters where the pilot seat is on the left, MD's. We do not change our
patterns depending on how the seat is loctated. The helicopter is to avoid the
flow of fixed wing traffic, plus we do not need to fly the same type of pattern
as a fixed wing aircraft, that is the reason for the type of patterns flown by
helicopters.

Craig "can turn either right or left" Shaber


Change the verbiage to read
"By happy coincidence, a lot of
patterns in the US for airplane traffic are left patterns,
and solo pilots and often PICs with passengers fly from
the left seat and enjoy a better vis."

"Also by happy coincidence, some helicopters avoiding the flow of
fixed wing traffic might make right patterns and have the PIC
or solo pilot in the right seat. This pilot might have
better visibility."

Whether there is causality or not is certainly arguable.
I for one am happy with the coincidence...


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA
  #17  
Old March 10th 04, 03:06 PM
whbush
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

My experience is, I feel that I am entering sink before lift and have said
to myself many times 'there's the sink..' and the audio vario confirms it.
Now the vario tells me less sink look for the lift...and that feeling in my
butt tells me the same, I then wait for the wings to tell me which way to
turn, it doesn't tell if by the time I decide if to turn if I did it to
early or late. But the pundits would be dolphining and not turning anyway.



"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
No offense to good ol' Tom, but the lift and sink that I have
encountered feel different. The sinking part of the thermal before
the lift of the wing feels turbulent to me. It also seems to go
from more sink to less sink. This is the opposite of a lift,
where it goes from less lift to more lift.

So when I feel a roll that goes from a high roll rate to a low roll rate,
I am in the turbulent sink before the core of the thermal, and
when I go from a low roll rate to a high roll rate, I know that
wing is entering the core of the thermal and since it is the
lifted wing, I turn into it, and into the thermal.

I didn't even realise this is what I do and feel until
I verbalized it just then. I must say that this "feel"
has done very, very well for me. When I look at my
traces, I turn immediately into the thermal and circle
there effectively with little shift (no 270
degree turns or major corrections to the other side).
This seems to work quite well, and consistently.

Some of this was learned because I flew quite a few days in
perfectly clear air. Other than the feel of the stick and
the pitch and roll, I had no immediate indications of lift.
The vario was just too coarse.

In article ,
Jim Vincent wrote:
some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma


I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach

only
works about half the time.

Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the

lift
of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen

to run
into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying

really
helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning

into
the lifted wing would take you into the lift.

Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left

wing
and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you

woud
turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be

to
turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the

thermal.

So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more

how you
respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ



--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA



  #18  
Old March 10th 04, 04:41 PM
DonDLHMN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think someone already pointed out that the OFFICIAL guidance for helo pilots
when entering an airport area is "to aviod the flow of fixed wing traffic".
Pretty much means to me that what I've always done when flying a helo is
correct..I just avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic...seems to work out well
for everyone! Who wants to spend all that extra time flyng a totally
unnecessary traffic pattern anyway?

As for the question of land left, thermal right....that certainly smacks of
"rote learning", inflexibility, and of one who needs more training. Will all of
your possible landouts work with that "land left" concept? Wouldn't you want to
be as able to adapt safely and quickly to differing pattern requirements as you
could possibly be? The airport where I fly gliders lands left traffic when
landing south and southeast and then right traffic when landing north and
northwest. What would a person that is only competent to "land left" do in this
situation? Maybe fly only on days where the wind suits his preferred (and
limited) landing abilities?
  #19  
Old March 10th 04, 04:43 PM
John
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The point I was making was is there benefits for low-time pilots to
thermal right and land left?

Of course, this is not needed for super experienced pilots who have
developed so much skill that they feel thermals and no longer need a
vario, or fly helicopters when the lift is not that good because they
have all this excess flying skill.

I myself can turn equally well right or left. But I have noticed I
prefer thermalling to the right, and landing to the left. Having over
250 flights, I have plenty of experience going both directions, but
have developed preference for turning one way or another. (as an
aside, I prefer left turns on my motorcycle too....no reason, just
like them better).

But for new pilots, experience is limited. So can habits be quickly
developed to make fast turns when low, and slow turns when high, with
the simple choice of turn direction? Seems like people do what they
practice, so it would be hard to isolate the slow turns in a thermal
with the faster turns while landing unless something fundamentally is
different. Turn direction might be that difference.

Of course, altitude should be the difference (the trees are bigger so
go faster). But based on the number of crashes while landing, this
seems not to be a good indicator that you can't go around the pattern
like you have just been going around thermals. I propose a simple
idea that turn direction might have some safety benefits. Any honest
comment on the idea?

I assume, once experience is gained, the low-time pilot will be
equally good regardless of turn direction. Can the habit be broken
then? Likely, but if the low-time pilot maintains a preference for
turn direction while thermalling or landing, is that bad? I would
suggest most of us have a preference eventually, so what is wrong with
starting out with a specified turn preference being taught?
  #20  
Old March 10th 04, 06:10 PM
Bill Daniels
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John" wrote in message
om...
The point I was making was is there benefits for low-time pilots to
thermal right and land left?


Sorry, John, the answer is no. Pilots, "low-time" or not, shouldn't even
THINK about preferred turn directions whether in thermals or landing
patterns.

Absent a rigging error, (meaning the glider flies straight hands-off - not
forgetting the wing pins) a pilots feeling that he has a "preferred turn
direction" is a red flag warning of a general flying skill deficit that
needs professional attention.

Turns are the simplest and most essential maneuver in a glider pilots
repertoire. If a pilot can't do those very, very well, in both directions,
there is a big problem that very likely extends to other areas.

Even if a pilot is otherwise safe, given the complexity of flying, there is
no way to safely accommodate a turn preference. Turns, both left and right,
should be totally instinctive and easy.

BTW, I've come to really dislike the pejorative term "low-time pilots". I
know many extremely skilled pilots with less than 200 hours and LOTS of
"long-time" pilots whose flying skills have deteriorated to alarming levels.
The later group seems to use the term a great deal. No matter how many
years you have been flying, you are only as good as your last flight.

Bill Daniels

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Auction: Thermal Imaging Camera - One Day Left sell2all Rotorcraft 0 April 29th 04 08:29 PM
For Auction: Thermal Imaging Camera - One Day Left sell2all Naval Aviation 0 April 29th 04 08:09 PM
For Auction: Thermal Imaging Camera - One Day Left sell2all General Aviation 0 April 29th 04 08:09 PM
Spin on thermal entry - how-to Bill Daniels Soaring 0 January 29th 04 06:43 PM
Thermal to Wave contact! C.Fleming Soaring 1 January 21st 04 02:54 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.