Lost comms after radar vector

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:BskPb.93571$5V2.266461@attbi_s53...
"Gary Drescher" wrote...

Let's say you lack RNAV, and your destination airport has an off-field
VOR
approach, no DME, and no other nearby navaid. How would you propose to
use
that airport as a holding fix if you're going to hold for an hour?

I don't!

As I wrote previously, the decision to hold or not is situation-dependent.
The
situation you describe would prompt me to squawk 7700/7600 and shoot the
approach on arrival.

So then, Weiss remains incapable of learning.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:00ePb.89430$Rc4.449664@attbi_s54...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote...

In most cases the clearance limit is the destination airport, how
do you comply with FAR 91.185(c)(3)?

Easy -- per 91.185(c)(3)(ii). Holding over the airport would be a
Standard
pattern per AIM 5-3-7.c.

But if the clearance limit is the destination airport, then there won't be
and EFC, and so 91.185c3ii does *not* say to hold over the airport. Suppose
you lost comm shortly before getting to an IAF, and before being cleared for
the approach. In that case, compliance with 91.185c3ii as written would
require you fly from the IAF to the airport, then back to the IAF, then back
to the airport to land. Is that what you would do?

Since compliance would be nonsensical, it seems clear that 91.185c3 just
wasn't intended to address the case where the clearance limit is the
destination airport.

--Gary

Roy Smith wrote in message ...
Another thing we learned on that flight was that handhelds aren't worth
crap inside the airplane.

Hmmm, based on our testing I wouldn't say that.

First, hearing anything over the cabin noise was
very difficult (neither of us had adapters to plug our headsets into the
handheld radios). Second, the little rubber ducky antennas don't work
for ****, especially inside a metal airplane cabin.

Ah. Well, yes, one definately needs the adaptor for the headset.
Another thing which is helpful is an adaptor cable with suction
cups, which allows one to place the antenna on the windshield.

It might also help that our plane probably has less metal and more
window in the upper half of the cockpit.

With the above, what we discovered in an afternoon of testing
is that it worked OK in areas where radio reception was strong,
but not nearly the same range. No surprise there.

What I think would make the most sense is a way to connect your handheld
directly to the external antenna in the plane, and make sure you've got
a way to plug your headsets directly into your handheld radio.

Yes, that would definately make the most sense. It's also very
useful to have the headset adaptor and anything else which needs
setup, already set-up. If one needs the handheld the last thing
one needs is to be fumbling about trying to set it up.

Cheers,
Sydney

"PaulaJay1" wrote in message
...

No, Steve, I don't think the controller should have to jump thru hoops
several
times a minute, either. The SYSTEM should allow you to disable MY 7600
after
you have seen and heard it and let me continue the code and still be armed
for
another if it occurs (surely you don't get many overlaping emergencys).
It
just seems that to put in 7600 and then return to my original (requiring
me to
remember it) in 30 seconds is unnecessary load at a critical time.


How would the system distinguish between your 7600 code and another 7600
code?

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:vHfPb.91560$5V2.229832@attbi_s53...

I was under the impression you were an instrument-rated pilot as
well as an ATC controller...


I am.



Direct, using the time/heading/distance from your preflight planning.


Ah, via dead-reckoning. I see. Are you an instrument-rated pilot? Are you
a pilot at all?


[From the question, I assume MKE doesn't have a VOR at the field.
I'm in Seattle, and don't have charts or other pubs for the MKE area,
so I'll fast-forward you to WA.]


Online versions are available, MKE is on the NACO IFR Area Chart
Chicago/Milwaukee.



If I was enroute to BFI (Boeing Field, WA, which does not have a
co-located VOR), I would know to look up the nearby NAVAIDS
in the Airport/Facility Directory, and find that BFI is at the SEA
341/5.7.
I would plot the course and distance from my previous waypoint (e.g.,
TAGOR, on V 120, SEA 069/16) on a Sectional, and transfer it
(approx 291/17) to my kneeboard Nav card.

In the airplane, if I lost comm prior to TAGOR, all I have to do is fly
direct from TAGOR to the SEA 341/5.7 (cross-checking with the
PARKK NDB at the field, if I don't have DME -- I could do this as
an NDB hold, too, but I am assuming that isn't an option at MKE),
using the preplanned heading and time, adjusted for any wind
corrections I'd been using enroute to TAGOR.


Nope, not an option at MKE. Given that you can navigate enroute and hold
using just dead-reckoning, why do you bother with navaids while enroute at
all?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:vHfPb.91560$5V2.229832@attbi_s53...

I was under the impression you were an instrument-rated pilot as
well as an ATC controller...


I am.



Direct, using the time/heading/distance from your preflight planning.


Ah, via dead-reckoning. I see. Are you an instrument-rated pilot? Are
you
a pilot at all?

Weiss is a 747-400 pilot for Atlas and seems in need of a psych exam, to
keep his ATP.

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1074631707.427512@sj-nntpcache-3...

This all strikes me as highly academic. The only likely reason for losing
both comms is an electrical failure. In that case you're on the mag
compass and dead reckoning, if you're in IMC. The only good reason for
knowing the official lost comm procedure is to pass your instrument
oral.


Well, dual communications radios are not required for IFR operations, but
you're essentially right. In a typical avionics package in any aircraft
used regularly for IFR transportation there are at least two communications
radios. If the installer did his job right they share no components and he
provided auxiliary jacks in the event of an audio panel failure. Most
pilots today seem to prefer wearing headsets, but if there's a problem with
the headset the cabin speaker and hand microphone are there. The chances of
losing both transmitters and both receivers simultaneously are extremely
remote, unless the loss is due to a failure in the electrical system, which
would leave the other installed avionics just as useless as the comm
radios.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:lahPb.93229$nt4.238743@attbi_s51...

I don't think so...


And yet you just said you could hold at such a fix.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:_biPb.92428$5V2.241427@attbi_s53...

If you can navigate to a place once, you can do it again. If your
navigational ability is so degraded that you cannot find your
position via VOR/DME, VOR/VOR, VOR/NDB, or similar
means, then you probably should declare an emergency and
navigate any way you can to any place you can identify.


Have you given up on dead-reckoning?

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:BskPb.93571$5V2.266461@attbi_s53...

I don't!


You did less than a day ago:


Okay. I'm heading to Milwaukee from Grand Rapids. I've filed the
preferential, GRR..MKG.V2.SUDDS..MKE, and have been cleared as filed.
I'm flying a BE35/U; two nav/comms, GS receiver, ADF, and marker
beacon receiver. At MINNY I discover I cannot transmit or receive on
either comm radio. How do I hold over the airport?

Per AIM 5-3-7.c:

Over MKE
Standard pattern (right turn, 1 or 1 1/2 minute legs)
On the course from SUDDS to MKE
At your cleared altitude
Until the time calculated per 91.185(c)(3)(ii)