ATC CONTROLLER HIRING PUSH CREATES CLASS STRUGGLE

For years it was apparent that there would be a shortage of ATC
controllers due to retirements, but FAA delayed precutting more. Now
this:


CONTROLLER HIRING PUSH CREATES CLASS STRUGGLE
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#195087)
The FAA's unprecedented recruiting drive for air traffic controllers
has caused bitter division between the new recruits and those who've
taken the college route to the console. Pat Forrey, president of the
National Air Traffic Controllers Association, told AVweb in an
interview (http://www.avweb.com/alm?podcast20070430&kw=Flash) that
controller trainees who have gone through college, often amassing
large student loans, are now training side by side with people who
have almost literally been pulled off the street and into the program.
"It's causing a rift amongst the new hires," Forrey said. Ironically,
though, Forrey said it's unlikely the off-the-street trainees are at
any significant competitive disadvantage against their college-trained
classmates.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#195087

Larry Dighera writes:

CONTROLLER HIRING PUSH CREATES CLASS STRUGGLE
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#195087)
The FAA's unprecedented recruiting drive for air traffic controllers
has caused bitter division between the new recruits and those who've
taken the college route to the console. Pat Forrey, president of the
National Air Traffic Controllers Association, told AVweb in an
interview (http://www.avweb.com/alm?podcast20070430&kw=Flash) that
controller trainees who have gone through college, often amassing
large student loans, are now training side by side with people who
have almost literally been pulled off the street and into the program.
"It's causing a rift amongst the new hires," Forrey said. Ironically,
though, Forrey said it's unlikely the off-the-street trainees are at
any significant competitive disadvantage against their college-trained
classmates.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#195087

The mistake was in associating college educations to ATC skills in the first
place. Being a good controller is mostly a matter of natural talent for the
job, just as the article says, and a college degree is completely irrelevant.
That's what happens when credentialism is allowed to rule.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Wed, 02 May 2007 00:25:03 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote in :

That's what happens when credentialism is allowed to rule.

Hey. That's only part of it. ATC applicants who are US military
veterans get an automatic 5% increase in test scores, and Purple Heart
holders get 10%.

It's called the Merit System of civil service. :-)

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
Forrey said it's unlikely the off-the-street trainees are at
any significant competitive disadvantage against their college-trained
classmates.

I wonder how true that is. It's been my experience that a college degree
shows you can be taught. On the other hand, I have seen some pretty bright
people who never attended college. I would predict a higher wash-out rate
among those without the education.

"Steve Foley" wrote in message


I wonder how true that is. It's been my experience that a college
degree shows you can be taught. On the other hand, I have seen some
pretty bright people who never attended college. I would predict a
higher wash-out rate among those without the education.

I'll take that bet. I think the wash-out rate would be fairly consistent
regardless of education - and quite possibly slightly better for non-degree
trainees. I base this on my own experience hiring/training/sometimes firing
software developers.

"Can be taught" != "wants to learn".

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________

Larry Dighera writes:

Hey. That's only part of it. ATC applicants who are US military
veterans get an automatic 5% increase in test scores, and Purple Heart
holders get 10%.

Really? That's supposed to be illegal. The same thing is done for different
races on aptitude tests, though.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"John T" wrote in message
m...

I'll take that bet. I think the wash-out rate would be fairly consistent
regardless of education - and quite possibly slightly better for
non-degree trainees. I base this on my own experience
hiring/training/sometimes firing software developers.

"Can be taught" != "wants to learn".

What qualifications do you use for screening candidates?

Should I pull the plug on my son's tuition? He's a CS major (Game
Development)

"Steve Foley" wrote in message


What qualifications do you use for screening candidates?

Should I pull the plug on my son's tuition? He's a CS major (Game
Development)

At the risk of divulging a competitive advantage...

We have a multi-stage interview process:
1. If the resume looks decent (primarily demonstrated experience with
relevant technology), we arrange a phone screen.
2. Interviewer #1 talks to the candidate on the phone and asks a series of
technical questions designed to filter out the obvious chaff. If they answer
adequately, we arrange a personal interview.
3. Interviewers #2 and #3 use a different set of questions designed to
determine the depth of the candidate's knowledge in the technologies we use
as well as ones designed to demonstrate the candidate's problem-solving
techniques.
4. After the personal interview, Interviewers #1-3 get together to discuss
the candidate and the candidate is invited to join the team if 2 of 3
interviewers recommend hiring.

(It should be noted we use the same questions for all candidates. The only
difference between them is we don't bother asking the more advanced
questions if we determine we've reached the limits of the candidate's
knowledge. This allows a better "apples-to-apples" comparison.)

Frankly, level of education is hardly a factor in our process. Your son, for
example, would get a phone screen (for a junior position) if he were able to
show experience with the technologies we use. The college program should
provide some of that experience as well as exposing him to concepts like
programming teams, requirements analysis and problem-solving - skills
perhaps more important than knowing the nuances of a given language.

One of the most useful items in our interview is a small 11-line method
pulled from our actual code base. This method came to my attention when a
critical defect was discovered in the code and I've been using in the
interviews ever since by asking the candidate two simple questions: Describe
the purpose of this method ("what does it do", not the "why") and describe
how you would unit test it to ensure proper operation. There is one critical
defect in the method and I'm looking to see if the candidate can uncover it
either by experience or by logical unit testing. It's a major demerit if
they do not reveal the defect. On the other hand, they get extra credit if
they quickly identify the defect and suggest ways to fix it. This skill is
one of the more critical skills we need in our environment.

I may be an optimist, but I think the FAA likely has (should have?) a
similar process to identify candidates with the mentality and aptitude to
handle the job of ATC.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________

John T wrote:
(It should be noted we use the same questions for all candidates. The only
difference between them is we don't bother asking the more advanced
questions if we determine we've reached the limits of the candidate's
knowledge. This allows a better "apples-to-apples" comparison.)

if I may, this is a major flaw in your process... there are quite a few
websites out there dedicated to sharing information about interviewing
techniques and questions amongst job seekers. The more visibility your
company has, the more likely such site exists for that company (not
to mention more generic repositories of questions used frequently);
but I digress.

--Sylvain

"Sylvain" wrote in message

John T wrote:
(It should be noted we use the same questions for all candidates.
The only difference between them is we don't bother asking the more
advanced questions if we determine we've reached the limits of the
candidate's knowledge. This allows a better "apples-to-apples"
comparison.)

if I may, this is a major flaw in your process... there are quite a
few websites out there dedicated to sharing information about
interviewing techniques and questions amongst job seekers. The more
visibility your company has, the more likely such site exists for
that company (not
to mention more generic repositories of questions used frequently);
but I digress.

I admit it's a risk, but I don't think it's a flaw.

Perhaps I should have been more clear earlier in that we ask each candidate
the same concepts, not necessarily the identical questions. We have a large
battery of questions available to us and the interviewers typically have 15+
years experience - mostly on large, complicated systems. It has happened
that we've detected "coached" answers and we have re-phrased the questions
on the fly to see if the candidates really knew the concepts. (This has
proven more effective than I'd've thought.) Further, with that much
experience in the room, it's not difficult to drill quite deeply into a
given subject, if needed. Also, we often use a "temp-to-perm" scenario to
help mitigate the remainig risk.

Yes, there have been candidates get through this process that shouldn't
have, but the numbers have been very small.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________