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Completing the Non-precision approach as a Visual Approach



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 18th 03, 06:54 PM
David Brooks
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"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s52...
When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach

point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175.


So, once I saw the runway environment (and kept it in sight), I was ok to
descend a hundred feet, fly a couple more miles, fly the pattern, and

land,
right?


Well, there is one little thing in 91.175:
at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers


Of course the word normal has to be interpreted. If scud-running is a normal
maneuver for you, then it was probably OK. Er, would have been OK, if it had
happened. I suspect the phrase is intended to discourage abnormally
aggressive descent and/or turns.

-- David Brooks


  #22  
Old November 18th 03, 06:55 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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wrote in message
...

Height Above Airport is based on the highest terrain point on the airport.


Not quite. Height Above Airport is based on the highest point on an
airport's usable runways. There may be higher points on ramps or taxiways.


  #23  
Old November 18th 03, 06:56 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"JimBob" wrote in message
om...

The caviat here is you need to see the runway environment to be
allowed to descend, not just the airport.


True, but in this case there isn't much to the airport that is not runway
environment.


  #24  
Old November 18th 03, 07:02 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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wrote in message
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Well, for starters, he entered the pattern for a Runway, which sounds like
circle-to-land to me.


Imagine that. Circle-to-land on a VOR-A approach.



There are some pretty specific referenes as to what you
can, and cannot do, in flying a circle-to-land.


What are they?


  #25  
Old November 18th 03, 07:04 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

So, once I saw the runway environment (and kept it in sight), I was ok to
descend a hundred feet, fly a couple more miles, fly the pattern, and

land,
right?


Right.



Or (if I had been in class G, below 700' agl) cancel IFR "real quick"?

Does
ATC have to hear me and respond, or is my call "into the blind"

sufficient?


If you have the runway in sight you don't need to cancel or request a
contact approach.


  #26  
Old November 18th 03, 07:08 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

The gist of my question involves either or both of these aspects:

1) Does "having the runway environment in sight...make a normal landing"
in 91.175 mean its ok to descend below MDA, fly a couple more miles to the
airport and then fly the pattern (circle to land), as long as the runway

is
still in sight.


Yes.



2) Once I get to class G airspace on my approach and am clear of clouds

in
1 mi vis, can I then descend below MDA by doing something like declaring
myself visual, contact, or canceled IFR.


No, you do not get to Class G airspace at any point at or above the MDA.


  #27  
Old November 18th 03, 07:10 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message
...

I thought the whole reason for a steep-as-reasonable descent profile during
a non-precision approach was so that if the airport/runway environment is

in
sight before the MAP, you can take advantage of it and land. If you are
forced to fly not a foot lower to the missed, then therefore you can not
take advantage of the early sighting of the airport. In other words, after
arriving at the MDA and you have the runway environment in sight AND you

see
you're about to enter the cloud bases again, then you therefore "must"

enter
the cloud bases because you're not at the MAP yet?


No, you may descend below the MDA upon sighting the runway environment.


  #28  
Old November 18th 03, 07:18 PM
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

wrote in message
...

Well, for starters, he entered the pattern for a Runway, which sounds like
circle-to-land to me.


Imagine that. Circle-to-land on a VOR-A approach.


There are some pretty specific referenes as to what you
can, and cannot do, in flying a circle-to-land.


What are they?


  #29  
Old November 18th 03, 07:21 PM
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

wrote in message
...

Well, for starters, he entered the pattern for a Runway, which sounds like
circle-to-land to me.


Imagine that. Circle-to-land on a VOR-A approach.


Your usual fine observations aside, as you well know some IAPs with
circling-only minimums are aligned exactly with a runway but don't have
straight-in minimums because of descent gradient requirements. Usually, that
type of "alpha" approach triggers the landing requirements of 91.175 rather than
the circle-to-land requirements of 91.175.

In this case, he stated he "entered the pattern."




There are some pretty specific referenes as to what you
can, and cannot do, in flying a circle-to-land.


What are they?


They are set forth in 91.175 as you well know.

  #30  
Old November 18th 03, 09:15 PM
Matthew Waugh
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"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message
...
I thought the whole reason for a steep-as-reasonable descent profile

during
a non-precision approach was so that if the airport/runway environment is

in
sight before the MAP, you can take advantage of it and land. If you are
forced to fly not a foot lower to the missed, then therefore you can not
take advantage of the early sighting of the airport. In other words, after
arriving at the MDA and you have the runway environment in sight AND you

see
you're about to enter the cloud bases again, then you therefore "must"

enter
the cloud bases because you're not at the MAP yet? Then the only way to
descend is to request and get cleared for a Contact Approach?


Check out 91.175(b)(1). It all depends on your interpretation of "normal
rate of descent" and "normal maneuvers." Only you know if you're making
normal flight maneuvers or "ducking under" and the only way we'll know if
you were ducking under is if somebody peels you off the side of a hill.

Mat

--
Matthew Waugh
Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI
http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm



 




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