Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

a wrote
I'm wondering why the 60 degree bank 30 degree pitch requirement of a
'chute for all occupants doesn't apply?

Because there was no one else on board except for a crewmember.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved
parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than
a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the
horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any
certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor;

If you do not have a copy of the U.S. Aviation Regulations, they can be
found he

http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*58994814!_h-www.landings.com/
_landings/pages/regulations.html

Bob Moore

On Aug 23, 2:52*pm, Robert Moore wrote:
a wrote

I'm wondering why the *60 degree bank 30 degree pitch requirement of a
'chute for all occupants doesn't apply?

Because there was no one else on board except for a crewmember.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved
parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than
a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the
horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any
certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor;

If you do not have a copy of the U.S. Aviation Regulations, they can be
found he

http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*58994814!_h-www.landings.com/
_landings/pages/regulations.html

Bob Moore

Thanks. The part I read did not have the parans excluding crew
members. It's a non issue for me, My m20J does not (intentionally) see
anything like those pitch and bank limits.

I still maintain the fastest way down is a strong slip. As somone
mentioned, for non preasurized airplanes, the most likely need to get
down fast is a fire, and a slip may keep the flames away from the
cabin. Mooney's slip really well but losing energy while flying
coordinated is a chore -- come in hot for a landing and you'll float
forever. I''ll have to try a turn while slipping sometime although a
turn into the low wing side makes it a little more coordinated and I
would be reluctant to try to turn into my blind (high wing) side.

a wrote:

I still maintain the fastest way down is a strong slip.

I once have been caught on top of an overcast. Don't ask me how I
managed to get in that position, it was entirely my mistake and pretty
dumb. Anyway, once there and being only VFR rated, I was happy to know
how to spiral-slip down through a hole.

On Aug 23, 5:21*pm, John Smith wrote:
a wrote:
I still maintain the fastest way down is a strong slip.

Just curious A,

What's the POH say for emergency descent speeds for the Mooney?

I know for sure, that I cannot do 152 knots (POH says 152 for
emergency descents) doing a slip in my Sundowner with all that drag.
I couldn't even get to VNE nose down within my own safe parameters
without bank.

Again, the purpose of this exercise for me was emergency descent for
collision avoidance. I wanted to get a feel for what the plane would
do under non emergency situations and it was a huge lesson learned for
me.

"BeechSundowner" wrote in message
news:4a61563b-a2b2-4519-a3af-
...
On Aug 23, 5:21 pm, John Smith wrote:
a wrote:
I still maintain the fastest way down is a strong slip.

Just curious A,

What's the POH say for emergency descent speeds for the Mooney?

I know for sure, that I cannot do 152 knots (POH says 152 for
emergency descents) doing a slip in my Sundowner with all that drag.
I couldn't even get to VNE nose down within my own safe parameters
without bank.

Again, the purpose of this exercise for me was emergency descent for
collision avoidance. I wanted to get a feel for what the plane would
do under non emergency situations and it was a huge lesson learned for
me.

Be carefull up there!

I have been told several times that the the vertical tail is the weak link
on most aircraft--not just the Airbus 320--and that the maximum speed
permissible for full rudder deflection is frequently less than the stated
"maneuvering speed.

Assuming the above is true, I have no idea how to determine the maximum
speed for full rudder deflection.

Peter

"BeechSundowner" wrote in message
...
Again, the purpose of this exercise for me was emergency descent for
collision avoidance.

I missed this point the first time, so I am glad you repeated it.

Of course! To avoid a collision, you do whatever is necessary and you may
have to decide instantaneously and instinctively. That said...

A spiral (even a fast descending spiral) is not my first choice for
collision avoidance because 1) I prefer a strategy that allows me to keep
sight of the aircraft I am avoiding, You just don't know what the other
aircraft is going to do. and... 2) A spiral takes me back near (or to) to
the bit of airspace that contained the other aircraft. That is the last
place where I want to go! (Yes, I know you are descending for avoidance,
but the other pilot may have seen you and made the same choice at the same
moment)

Just my 2 cents for discussion.

Vaughn

In article
,
BeechSundowner wrote:

On Aug 23, 10:02*am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

*Besides,
in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being prepared
under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle!

Exactly why I went out Peter, and it's not like I didn't try to do the
research before doing this
maneuver in the first place.

The intent of this lesson wasn't to learn or fly acro but to better
myself in
see and avoid situations. Last time I did this was 2001 when I was in
VFR training
in a Cessna so why not bring myself up to speed in "currency" in my
own plane?

Let me just toss in my two cents in support of your position. Nothing I
saw in the video looked even remotely dangerous. I can't speak to the
regs, not being a lawyer, but IMO keeping your skills sharp outweighs
following every dotted i and crossed t.

Seems some pilots can't stomach the idea of doing anything out of the
ordinary. 30-degree banks and no more, please! Fly all approaches at
1.3Vso and touch down at exactly 1000ft beyond the threshold!

Now, I don't want to sound like I'm advocating doing dangerous things
just because they're interesting. Quite the contrary: ensuring the
safety of the maneuver should be the top goal. But there is nothing
AUTOMATICALLY unsafe about exceeding 60 degrees of bank, just like it's
not AUTOMATICALLY safe to do anything that stays within the bounds set
by the FARs and the POH.

In short: carry on, and keep posting those videos!

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

On Aug 23, 8:13*pm, "Peter Dohm" wrote:
"BeechSundowner" wrote in message

news:4a61563b-a2b2-4519-a3af-

...
On Aug 23, 5:21 pm, John Smith wrote:
a wrote:
I still maintain the fastest way down is a strong slip.

Just curious A,

What's the POH say for emergency descent speeds for the Mooney?

I know for sure, that I cannot do 152 knots (POH says 152 for
emergency descents) doing a slip in my Sundowner with all that drag.
I couldn't even get to VNE nose down within my own safe parameters
without bank.

Again, the purpose of this exercise for me was emergency descent for
collision avoidance. *I wanted to get a feel for what the plane would
do under non emergency situations and it was a huge lesson learned for
me.

Be carefull up there!

I have been told several times that the the vertical tail is the weak link
on most aircraft--not just the Airbus 320--and that the maximum speed
permissible for full rudder deflection is frequently less than the stated
"maneuvering speed.

Assuming the above is true, I have no idea how to determine the maximum
speed for full rudder deflection.

Peter

Agree Peter,

I would never hang any parts of the plane outside the white arc :-)))
much less do a slip for emergency descent..

I learned from this exercise that I can't even get to VNE without
bank without an excessive amount of forward pressure on the yoke. I
am a believer in NOT forcing the plane to doing something it won't
do. Bank sure took care of that problem :-))

"Mike Ash" wrote in message
...
In article
,
BeechSundowner wrote:

On Aug 23, 10:02 am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

Besides,
in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being
prepared
under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle!

Exactly why I went out Peter, and it's not like I didn't try to do the
research before doing this
maneuver in the first place.

The intent of this lesson wasn't to learn or fly acro but to better
myself in
see and avoid situations. Last time I did this was 2001 when I was in
VFR training
in a Cessna so why not bring myself up to speed in "currency" in my
own plane?

Let me just toss in my two cents in support of your position. Nothing I
saw in the video looked even remotely dangerous. I can't speak to the
regs, not being a lawyer, but IMO keeping your skills sharp outweighs
following every dotted i and crossed t.

Seems some pilots can't stomach the idea of doing anything out of the
ordinary. 30-degree banks and no more, please! Fly all approaches at
1.3Vso and touch down at exactly 1000ft beyond the threshold!

Now, I don't want to sound like I'm advocating doing dangerous things
just because they're interesting. Quite the contrary: ensuring the
safety of the maneuver should be the top goal. But there is nothing
AUTOMATICALLY unsafe about exceeding 60 degrees of bank, just like it's
not AUTOMATICALLY safe to do anything that stays within the bounds set
by the FARs and the POH.

In short: carry on, and keep posting those videos!

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

All I can say to that is: Well said!

Peter

Peter Dohm wrote:

I have been told several times that ... the maximum speed
permissible for full rudder deflection is frequently less than the stated
"maneuvering speed.

You have been told rubbish. Up to maneuvring speed it is safe to
instantly and fully deflect any ****rol, also the rudder. *But* this is
only true from straight and level flight and for one isolated deflection
of one isolated control. (Which the pilots of that famous Airbus
obviously ignored, who wildly waggled the rudder until it broke off,
creating such urban legends like the one you've cited above.)