Nimbus 4DT accident 31 July 2000 in Spain.

On the subject of training for Winch failures, personally I found the training
for a winch power failure quite demanding. With a cable break it is a sudden
event you can react instinctively to. With a gradual power loss it is very easy
to get "sucked in" to hanging on too long hoping the winch driver will pick up
speed and then ending up low and quite slow at the wrong end of the runway.

Chris Gadsby

Marian Aldenhövel wrote:
Hi,

Training for wire breaks starts at a high altitude in free flight. The
zooms, simulated break at 60 knots and pushover are repeated many times
until the student performs them instinctively.


Interestingly we don't do it like this where I am learning to fly.

We are taught to plan every launch as featuring a wire break and to
preplan up to what altitudes to land straight, turn back or fly the
pattern as part of the takeoff-check. During training we are to say
these altitudes and actions out loud.

Before soloing we do a minimum of three excercises where the instructor
pulls the knob at some point during the launch. So it's the real thing,
nothing "emergency-like" there. We do not train wire-breaks at altitude.

Still I feel very safe. And I also found pushing over, gaining normal speed
and then attitude the natural thing to do. It helps to have a plan as to
what to do next but up to there it really is instinct. I have not heard
of any of my fellow-students _not_ reacting that way.

Ciao, MM

Mark Wright wrote:

At 14:24 28 June 2005, F.L. Whiteley wrote:

At my club we do something similar with winch launch
radio signals during
the launch process. Nothing else is accepted.

'Up slack, up slack, up slack'
'Go, go, go'
'Stop, stop, stop'

Forgive me but this must sound like Yogi Bear conducting
the launch ! In the U.K. we have the following system
to help avoid confusion of a mishear

Take up slack ( Three words )
All Out ( Two words )
Stop ( One word )
The three repetitions are to overcome possible radio interference and range
limitations. GMRS works a lot better than FRS in this regard and sets of
four radios have recently become very cheap, including chargers, and we've
just acquired a set. We also use flags, however, depending on winds, we
may not have visuals from winch to launch point.

I've used the UK method on CB radios when Enstone was operating. Another
site where the launch point was not visible from the winch.

Frank

Diederik wrote:

Mark Wright wrote in message
...
At 14:24 28 June 2005, F.L. Whiteley wrote:

At my club we do something similar with winch launch
radio signals during
the launch process. Nothing else is accepted.

'Up slack, up slack, up slack'
'Go, go, go'
'Stop, stop, stop'

Forgive me but this must sound like Yogi Bear conducting
the launch ! In the U.K. we have the following system
to help avoid confusion of a mishear

Take up slack ( Three words )
All Out ( Two words )
Stop ( One word )

To get rid of radio failures, bad transmission, confusion or mishear
etc. etc.
We in the Netherlands generaly do not use radio's at all. We use a
bright light: flashing (take up slack) full (all out), out (stop!) for
any other communication with the winch we use radio if neccesary.
Sometimes a large white board (diameter 1 meter) in a pole is used: up
(take up slak), down (all out), waving left to right, right to left
(stop!!)

If the winch has the sun in the back then sometimes the withe board is
difficult to see but a bright light (from a car for instance) is
always vissible.

Diederik
I've used lights, radios, and flags at both flat and uneven airfields,
including staging an intermediate flag person midway, well off to the side,
when the launch point was not visible. Of the three, lights are probably
the best, but, like flags, are line of sight.

Frank

Good point, it is certainly more subtle. I've experienced diesel injection
timing go bad, clogged fuel lines, out of fuel, blown radiator hoses
(injecting coolant into the intake), and a few wire snags (on tie downs)
over the years. All resulted in the gradual loss of power, a scenario that
should be trained.

Frank

Chris Gadsby wrote:

On the subject of training for Winch failures, personally I found the
training
for a winch power failure quite demanding. With a cable break it is a
sudden
event you can react instinctively to. With a gradual power loss it is
very easy to get "sucked in" to hanging on too long hoping the winch
driver will pick up speed and then ending up low and quite slow at the
wrong end of the runway.

Chris Gadsby

Marian Aldenhövel wrote:
Hi,

Training for wire breaks starts at a high altitude in free flight. The
zooms, simulated break at 60 knots and pushover are repeated many times
until the student performs them instinctively.


Interestingly we don't do it like this where I am learning to fly.

We are taught to plan every launch as featuring a wire break and to
preplan up to what altitudes to land straight, turn back or fly the
pattern as part of the takeoff-check. During training we are to say
these altitudes and actions out loud.

Before soloing we do a minimum of three excercises where the instructor
pulls the knob at some point during the launch. So it's the real thing,
nothing "emergency-like" there. We do not train wire-breaks at altitude.

Still I feel very safe. And I also found pushing over, gaining normal
speed and then attitude the natural thing to do. It helps to have a plan
as to what to do next but up to there it really is instinct. I have not
heard of any of my fellow-students _not_ reacting that way.

Ciao, MM

Andrew Warbrick wrote:

At 14:24 28 June 2005, F.L. Whiteley wrote:
When I learned in the UK, the practice was

Statement: 'You have control'
Response: 'I have control'

or

Statement: 'I have control' (usually instructor)
Response: 'You have control'

It's clear and there is no confusion. Why add a fourth
word? Since
presumably if you have the controls, you also have
control of the aircraft.
Personally I think it should be the standard between
instructor and student
and between pilots flying dual. When I fly dual with
another pilot or with
a passenger that might get the stick for a while, I
brief this during
pre-flight checks and reiterate it before changing
control.

At my club we do something similar with winch launch
radio signals during
the launch process. Nothing else is accepted.

'Up slack, up slack, up slack'
'Go, go, go'
'Stop, stop, stop'

I have known of an instructor and tow pilot flying
together where no one was
in control and the glider exceeded VNe slightly in
a dive and was recovered
gently once the situation was realized. It could have
ended otherwise.

Frank

For winch launching in particular I've always favoured.
'Take up Slack,Take up Slack'
'All Out, All Out, All Out'
'Stop, Stop Stop'
It produces three different rythms and makes the three
phrases distinct even when readability is 1. Everybody
gets hot under the collar if you mistake 'stop stop
stop' for 'go go go' with 230hp of diesel screaming
in your ear.
Given the choice I'd go for the BGA 'lights' system
over radio control every time.

I liked that verbage, but it didn't catch on in our operation, though I
suggested it. 'All out' isn't a common idiom to us Yanks as far as I can
tell.

Frank

That might be true in the US, but not necessarily in other countries. If you
want to do aerobatics with passengers in Germany, you need to have 3 solo
aerobatics within the last 90 days, and some number (50?) of solo aerobatic
flights in total. So you actually need to log aerobatic flights.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"T o d d P a t t i s t" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
"Ian Johnston"
wrote:

: Last weekend I flew in the mountains. Conditions were rough and I had to
: make fairly dramatic motions of the controls to keep the blue side up.
: I'll log it as an aerobatic flight, then.

You can log it as such. It doesn't mean anything since
there's no requirement to log aerobatic flight and it's not
used to meet any license requirements.

All this seems to hinge on what's meant by "aerobatic".

In the U.S. aerobatic is defined as :

"an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an
aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal
acceleration, not necessary for normal flight."

Frankly, it
seems like a pretty pointless term to me, since it seems to depend on
the intention of the pilot rather on the manoevres flown. Why, for
example, is a loop aerobatic yet a tight thermalling turn, involving
similar stresses on the glider, is not?

It depends on whether the loop or thermalling turn were
"necessary for normal flight." IMHO, the thermalling turn
and winch launch are required, a loop is not. The only
difference between the two in the U.S is that you can't do
the loop:

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;
(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;
(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of
Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated
for an airport;
(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any
Federal airway;
(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or
(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

You could make the turn/winch launch over/in those
areas/conditions.

A related definition is where you must wear a parachute when
flying with a passenger:

When you exceed:
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative
to the horizon.



T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

The three repetitions are to overcome possible radio interference and range
limitations.
....

The answer is reading back.

Pilot: type of glider number of seats at which cable is ready
Winch driver: I pull type fo glider number of seats at which cable
Pilot: cable is tight
Winch driver: (pulls without saying something)

Before the final pull for launch, the command "stop" is well understood
by the winch driver. As soon as he is pulling, though, aborting the
launch is *no* option for the whinch driver, he has to pull whatever
happens. It's only the pilot who can still abort by releasing.

The radio communication is done by the pilot himself, so waving flags
etc. is no option. Besides, we can't see the other end of the runway anyway.

Stefan

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

Good point, it is certainly more subtle. I've experienced diesel injection
timing go bad, clogged fuel lines, out of fuel, blown radiator hoses
(injecting coolant into the intake), and a few wire snags (on tie downs)
over the years. All resulted in the gradual loss of power, a scenario that
should be trained.

The answer is: Watch your airspeed.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:
F.L. Whiteley wrote:

Good point, it is certainly more subtle. I've experienced diesel injection
timing go bad, clogged fuel lines, out of fuel, blown radiator hoses
(injecting coolant into the intake), and a few wire snags (on tie downs)
over the years. All resulted in the gradual loss of power, a scenario that
should be trained.

The answer is: Watch your airspeed.

Stefan

Stefan;
You are an accident looking for a grid ref.
We know to watch the airspeed but what if it is "just adequate" to fly
safeyl but not maintain a full climb - you decide to chop the launch
and it speeds up -for a few seconds and then back to 48 knots?

Huh - chop or stay?

Jonathan

It's as simple as Stefan stated: You watch your airspeed, and if it's too
low, you abort.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"jonnyboy" a écrit dans le message de news:
...


Stefan wrote:
F.L. Whiteley wrote:

Good point, it is certainly more subtle. I've experienced diesel
injection
timing go bad, clogged fuel lines, out of fuel, blown radiator hoses
(injecting coolant into the intake), and a few wire snags (on tie
downs)
over the years. All resulted in the gradual loss of power, a scenario
that
should be trained.

The answer is: Watch your airspeed.

Stefan

Stefan;
You are an accident looking for a grid ref.
We know to watch the airspeed but what if it is "just adequate" to fly
safeyl but not maintain a full climb - you decide to chop the launch
and it speeds up -for a few seconds and then back to 48 knots?

Huh - chop or stay?

Jonathan