Safety pilot - logging cross-country

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Can you show that
logging PIC XC time as a safety pilot is consistent with the FARs?

Sure. If I'm the safety pilot, I can log "Pilot in Command" time while the
hooded pilot logs "Pilot in Control" time. If we reach the destination
(say, 60nm away) where I assume control and land, I can log the flight as
PIC and XC.

Now, just because I can doesn't mean I would or should. I've mabye logged a
third of the time I've spent as a safety pilot - and those were when a
friend would be maintaining currency and not just proficiency.

It's my opinion that one should not try to game the system by sitting right
seat for a friend and then try to log that as time toward a new rating. The
point of the regs is to ensure you have the experience necessary and simply
making sure the greasy side stays down and nobody swaps paint doesn't
qualify as flight experience, IMHO.

--
John T
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Personally, I don't think flying as a safety pilot for
another pilot on a x-country flight provides me the same x-country
'experience' as making the flight myself

In general, I agree, and based on my most recent interpretation of the
regs through this discussion and further looking at the regs, I would
say that it would definitely be a stretch to log XC PIC time while
acting as a safety pilot.

As far as "experience" goes, though... If you participate in the
planning of the flight and are involved in making sure the flight stays
on track, I don't see how you get any less experience out of the flight
than the manipulator of the controls. Once that bird is airbourne, it
pretty much flies itself and we merely become navigators. I think both
occupants benefit equally from an experience standpoint.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and actually agree on what's
loggable and what isn't. I'm just suggesting that as a right seat
passenger, of any flight, I feel like I gain valuable experience (even
though I can't log it) and only feel deprived of any landing
experiences.

Best Regards,
Todd

On 12/14/2005 10:50, three-eight-hotel wrote:

Personally, I don't think flying as a safety pilot for
another pilot on a x-country flight provides me the same x-country
'experience' as making the flight myself

In general, I agree, and based on my most recent interpretation of the
regs through this discussion and further looking at the regs, I would
say that it would definitely be a stretch to log XC PIC time while
acting as a safety pilot.

As far as "experience" goes, though... If you participate in the
planning of the flight and are involved in making sure the flight stays
on track, I don't see how you get any less experience out of the flight
than the manipulator of the controls. Once that bird is airbourne, it
pretty much flies itself and we merely become navigators. I think both
occupants benefit equally from an experience standpoint.

The difference, in my opinion, is in who is taking responsibility
for the planning, nav, control, etc. of the flight. In the case where
there are two pilots sharing the duties, is either one really taking
responsibility? I know they can decide in advance who will be PIC,
but when you get right down to it, only one person really planned
that flight; only one person really flew it; only one person really
landed, etc.

It's similar, in my mind, to a primary student going out for his first
solo - that is the first time he is really responsible for the control
of the airplane, even though the instructor may not have touched the
controls in some time.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, and actually agree on what's
loggable and what isn't. I'm just suggesting that as a right seat
passenger, of any flight, I feel like I gain valuable experience (even
though I can't log it) and only feel deprived of any landing
experiences.

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss the issue with you ;-)
Every time I get involved with a thread here, I learn something.
What a great resource!


Best Regards,
Todd



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Dave Butler wrote:
: To begin with, there is no safety pilot when the pilot flying is not under the
: hood. So your "Can the safety pilot..." question doesn't make sense.

: Aside from that, there is no requirement that the acting PIC is actually
: manipulating the controls. Anyone aboard with the proper credentials can act as PIC.

I feel obligated to point out the parallel situation of "safety pilot" logging
PIC. Consider a MEL-rated pilot acting as PIC with his buddy with SEL-rating flying
while enroute. Neither one can legally log PIC time if you interpret the regs
literally. The acting PIC cannot because he's not physically manipulating the
controls. The SEL-rated guy cannot because although he is manipulating the
controls, he is not rated in the aircraft.

Same way with a non-pilot manipulating the controls. I believe the FARs
specify this as illegal so the SEL/MEL example may be illegal as well.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

So that means my seven year old daughter can't log PIC time for the
last XC trip we took to Columbia, CA? ;-)

I took off and landed, but she held the controls, on a trimmed
airplane... I guess that also means that since I did not manipulate
the controls during the enroute phase of the flight, I can't log PIC
time either??? Man... that's gonnna really screw up my logbook! ;-)

Serioiusly though... What about that? How many times do we take a
non-pilot friend flying and let them fly the plane? How are the regs
supposed to be interpreted in that case? This grey area seems to get
broader and broader!

Best Regards,
Todd

Can
the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood? ... seems like a stretch to me.

The seat occupied isn't important; I take it you mean "pilot flying".
Given that, yes, the safety pilot can =be= PIC. It's the =logging= of
PIC time that is the issue. It sounds like he's trying to say "yes" and
not quite succeeding.

Jose
--
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for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Same way with a non-pilot manipulating the controls. I believe the FARs
specify this as illegal

Not for part 91, that I know of.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I had over a
thousand hours in gliders out of gliding range of home, and
many, many flights more than 50 nm from home, but the regs
say it isn't XC because I didn't land.

How did you get out of the aircraft? Must've been a long step down.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:55:18 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 12/14/2005 09:40, Peter Clark wrote:

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:01:37 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 12/14/2005 08:48, wrote:

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

How does answer the question set forth by the original poster?
His question was about logging x-country time, which the referenced
legal interpretation doesn't touch.

It does say:

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i).

So, if the flight is XC, wouldn't this allow both (assuming the prior
PF/PNF/ultimate safety condition is met) to log both PIC and XC (but
no landings for PNF) time?

So what about the time when the left-seat pilot is not under the hood.
It sounds to me like they are making an exception for this case. Can
the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood? ... seems like a stretch to me.

Plain-text: "If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the
flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1". So, as someone
else pointed out, PNF really isn't a "safety pilot" per-se, but is
more in that they accept ultimate responsibility for the flight and
can thus log *all* the flight time. Otherwise, they would just log
SIC for the time the PF is under the hood.

The FAQ's say "no", using the same logic as Andrew Sarangan.

However, it seems to me that you each could make a landing at the
destination airport and thus both meet the requirements of a X/C.