Student as PIC in IMC?

I'll be taking my checkride in a few weeks and one of my goals has been
to have at least 10 hours of actual IMC before I take the ride. It's
going well; I'm at 9.1 and only 2 of those were just boring a hole in
clouds on a cross country.

I have been under the impression that I could log PIC time when under
the hood but not in actual IMC, because I am not rated. Last night,
however, I read something in the ASA oral test prep book that seemed to
imply that this was not the case.

So, assembled wizards, should I be logging PIC time in IMC? or not?

tia,
Geo. Anderson

So, assembled wizards, should I be logging PIC time in IMC? or not?
--
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So, assembled wizards, should I be logging PIC time in IMC? or not?

(oops)

You can LOG "PIC" time if you are the sole manipulator of the controls (...).
You cannot =be= "PIC" if you are not rated and current for the plane and
conditions. You are not instrument rated, so you cannot BE PIC in IMC.
However, you can still LOG PIC time.

The trick is to understand that "PIC" means two differnt things in the two
different contexts. In the context of logging, it means one thing, in the
context of "final authority for the operation of the aircraft" it means
somethning else. "PIC" and "PIC" are synonyms.

Jose

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Look at 61.51(e) and show me where it mentions flight conditions, VFR or
IFR.

Bob Gardner

"Geo. Anderson" wrote in message
...
I'll be taking my checkride in a few weeks and one of my goals has been
to have at least 10 hours of actual IMC before I take the ride. It's
going well; I'm at 9.1 and only 2 of those were just boring a hole in
clouds on a cross country.

I have been under the impression that I could log PIC time when under
the hood but not in actual IMC, because I am not rated. Last night,
however, I read something in the ASA oral test prep book that seemed to
imply that this was not the case.

So, assembled wizards, should I be logging PIC time in IMC? or not?

tia,
Geo. Anderson

Teacherjh wrote:



The trick is to understand that "PIC" means two differnt things in the two
different contexts. In the context of logging, it means one thing, in the
context of "final authority for the operation of the aircraft" it means
somethning else. "PIC" and "PIC" are synonyms.

Could you explain the difference for those of us who haven't witness The Light Of
Knowledge?

On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:18:50 -0700, wrote:

Could you explain the difference for those of us who haven't witness The Light Of
Knowledge?

O ye of little faith.

The FAA has decreed that one can act as PIC without being able to log PIC.

The FAA has also decreed that one can log PIC without being qualified to
act as PIC.

The requirements to act as PIC are different from the requirements to log
PIC.

And you thought TERPs were confusing :-)



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"PIC" and "PIC" are synonyms.

Could you explain the difference for those of us who haven't witness The Light
Of
Knowledge?


When the regulations were written, two concepts got the same label. The first
concept was that of The One Who Is The Final Authority Of How The Flight Will
Be Conducted. The Top Dog. The Big Banana. El Mucho Macho. The One That
Stops The Buck. The rulemakers called this person the "Pilot In Command",
abbreviated PIC.

The other concept had to do with logging time, and what the person doing the
logging was doing when the flying was happening. Sometimes there are two
pilots in an airplane, and sometimes this is required (and sometimes not).
Some pilots are getting instruction in aircraft they can't fly, some pilots are
having things demonstrated to them, and some are just along for the ride. So,
there's a place in the logbook for "What You Were Doing On The Flight". If you
were rated for the plane, and were manipulating the controls yourself, you were
essentially flying the plane, even if there was an instructor in the other
seat. One example is an IFR student in actual IMC with an instructor. He
can't be The Top Dog because he's not rated for the conditions. Somebody else
has to be Top Dog. (the instructor). However, the instructor probably never
touches the controls. So, the person Doing The Flying should be able to log
the time as "Yes I Did The Flying" time, and the rules say so. But they also
call it "Pilot in command" time, even if the pilot isn't Top Dog.

Dumb? yes. But it's what we have.

So, you can log PIC time if you are sole manipulator of the controls (in most
cases). You can lot PIC time if you are Top Dog (in most cases). Thus, there
are times when two pilots get to log PIC time, even though only one of them is
Top Dog. There are even cases where nobody can log PIC time.

Jose




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On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:18:50 -0700, wrote:

Could you explain the difference for those of us who haven't witness The Light Of
Knowledge?

Sure. Snip from the introduction to my personal FAQ: "The Rules of
Logging PIC"
==============================
Basic Principles

The "golden key" to understanding "The Rules" is to always keep in
mind that the FAR treats "acting as pilot in command" and "logging
pilot in command time" as =completely= different concepts. It's the
difference between (1) having final authority and responsibility for
the operation and safety of a flight (commonly referred to as "acting
as PIC") and (2) writing numbers in columns on a piece of paper while
sitting at a desk with a beer in your hand. The first reflects FAA
policy about who is permitted to be in charge of a flight. The second
reflects FAA policy about what a pilot may count toward the
requirements for certificates, ratings and currency. They =never= mean
the same thing and they have completely different rules. A pilot can
be responsible for a flight and =not= be permitted to write those
numbers down. A pilot can be technically nothing but a passenger in
the FAA's eyes and be permitted to write time in that PIC column. In
some circumstances, two pilots may sit at that desk and write numbers
in their logbooks, even though, quite obviously, only one can bear the
ultimate responsibility for a flight.

The known universe of logging rules is contained in FAR 61.51. Unless
61.51 specifically directs you to it, answering a logging question by
including the word "acting" or pointing to any other FAR is always a
mistake. On the other hand, rules about "acting" as PIC in particular
circumstances can be found in various regulations.

[snip]

Keep them straight
Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility
Logging PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper
Different purposes, different concepts, different rules.

Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

On Tue, 25 May 2004 23:04:25 GMT, "Geo. Anderson"
wrote:


So, assembled wizards, should I be logging PIC time in IMC? or not?

You may.

Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may
log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft you are rated for. 61.51(e)(3)

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is
necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot
certificate. =Nothing= else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not
endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not
medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing.
There are no known exceptions.


Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

Mark Kolber wrote:
: Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may
: log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an
: aircraft you are rated for. 61.51(e)(3)

: "Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is
: necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot
: certificate. =Nothing= else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not
: endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not
: medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing.
: There are no known exceptions.

So, it is possible for someone to log PIC flight time who has a pilot
certificate with ratings valid for the aircraft (e.g. PPSEL), but no BFR or current
medical if they were the sole manipulator of the controls? If that is the case, then
this person could go fly with a current pilot rated for the aircraft, and they both
log PIC... one as sole manipulator and one as the legal "acting as PIC".

Hrm... that sounds fishy, because it means whenever two pilots fly together,
they can both log all the time as PIC... whomever isn't physically flying can be
legally acting as PIC at the same time.

Also, if that's true then I've got more high-performance/complex time than I
thought (sole manipulator without endorsement, buy flying with rated, endorsed pilot).

-Cory

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