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  #51  
Old January 29th 09, 07:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
vontresc
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Posts: 216
Default Short Wings Gliders

First off I still am relatively new to saoring, and probably won't be
competeing in any organized contests in 2009, but reading all the
recent post regarding competitions has me interested.

I think we really do need a place for people who do not have the
latest and greatest carbon ship to compete. I think the idea for the
sports class is good, BUT there is no decent way I can compete in my
Ka-6 with someone in a Ventus 2. My fear is that creating a 13.5m
class will leave a lot of older gliders (read affordable) out in the
cold. Maybe splitting Sports (or at least scoring it as 2 groups)
would allow us to have more people compete in older gliders.

Pete
  #52  
Old January 29th 09, 08:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
toad
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Posts: 229
Default Short Wings Gliders

On Jan 29, 1:34*pm, Brad wrote:

Why does everything revolve around flying for competition?


Not everything, but this discussion is about a new 13.5 meter RACING
class.

On your last point. If you can figure out how to make ANY type of
sailplane truly affordable (say $20,000 for new) then the sport might
start growing like crazy. But there seems no way to build a glider
that cheap.

Todd Smith
3S





  #53  
Old January 29th 09, 08:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Brian Bange[_2_]
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Posts: 34
Default Short Wings Gliders

At 18:06 29 January 2009, Greg Arnold wrote:
Brian Bange wrote:
I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders

together to have a contest. If you are into racing, you will

buy
something with at least 15 meters of span.
Yep. But that is the 1-26. We were talking about a new

13.5
meter class -- such a class would soon disappear without a

trace
due to the lack of interest.
This snobby attitude really gets to me.


Snobby?


If you ask most non-
owners what their dream sailplane is, they'll say a Discus2

or
some other $100K German ship. Getting closer to reality,

they'll
say they would settle for an LS4 or an ASW20. Then at the

level
of disposable income, they most likely have the money for a

K6
or a Russia. I was one of these. I finally analyzed where I

was
at with my flying and my finances and decided that instead

of
waiting for the bank account to have the necessary funds for

old
German glass, I would be farther ahead to get something

now,
fly it for awhile and keep saving, then move up when the

time
was right. 7 years after buying a Russia I am switching to an
ASW20. Was the short wing bird the way to go. YES!!! I

have
had tons of fun learning to fly X/C with it and will miss it.

Most
pilots I fly with in short wing gliders are not interested in hot
competition. They are interested in improving their skills and
enjoy the comradery of like minded individuals. A fun

contest
like the 1-26ers have I think would be welcomed. I hope the
World class morphs into what Bill Snead suggests - a class
handicapped to +/-5% of the PW5. That would include a lot

of
ships that have no place to go right now. Realizing that one

big
reason that people fly short wing birds is the low cost of

entry,
smaller meets at more locations would be the way to go. Not

too
many people are going to pack up their PW5 or Russia and
travel thousands of miles to compete. Many will however,

drive
within their state to attend. My 2 cents.

Brian Bange


Most of them are not flying in Sports Class now. Why do you

think they
would fly in a 13.5 Meter Class?

And if they were flying in Sports Class, what is to be gained by
establishing a new 13.5 Meter class?

The comment here seems to be roughly the same as when we

see people
advocating kicking the modern gliders out of Sports Class -- if

we just
change the rules, lots of pilots will suddenly come out of the

woodwork
and start completing. Not gonna happen.


Two of us at my club tried to compete in a small mock sports
class that was being set up at a new location to prove to airport
management that they should allow glider competitions there.
One was a PW5 and the other was me in my Russia. The task
was set conservatively, yet neither one of us could finish it. Both
of us have accomplished diamond goal flights. There is just no
way that 30:1 mixes well with 40:1. I read in a report from the
Worlds at Reiti that the PW5's did not thermal well with the
heavier ships. In a gaggle the PW5's would be slower and
tighter, making things interesting for everyone. And, as I said,
the pilots of the short wing ships are in many cases new to the
whole competition scene. A friendly environment and tasks that
are reasonable for pilots of this caliber I think would be
attended. Especially if they were smaller and closer to home.
Mixing 30:1 into the present Sports class with all the other large
ships sharing the same airspace isn't going to attract short wing
attendance. Plus think about the mental aspect. Who wants to
be driving a Honda on the same track with Ferrari's?

Brian



  #54  
Old January 29th 09, 09:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Posts: 1,345
Default Short Wings Gliders

On Jan 29, 10:11*am, Tech Support wrote:

Have you thought about some simple tooling a kit buyer could rent for
putting togther critical assemblies (wing to fusrelage, tail *asembly,
etc.).


Absolutely, I think about that a lot. What I'm trying to do is develop
"self-jigging" assemblies so that critical alignment elements are
already fixed into position, and you can use those elements to fix the
locations of related components.

But having a library of a few "iron bird" tools would be good too,
especially for things like aligning the horizontal stabilizer and
installing the wing carrythroughs.

Thanks, Bob K.

  #55  
Old January 30th 09, 06:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andreas Maurer
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Posts: 345
Default Short Wings Gliders

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?


Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.


Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.




Bye
Andreas
  #56  
Old January 30th 09, 07:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Silent[_2_]
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Posts: 36
Default Short Wings Gliders

At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it

possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

Andreas


How many flights and how many hours do they typically fly
for a price that hardly exceeds $800.

Tows, winch?

Any other expense?

In this regard Italy is not certainly part of Europe!!!!
  #57  
Old January 30th 09, 07:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
toad
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Posts: 229
Default Short Wings Gliders

On Jan 30, 12:56*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?


Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany *it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic *training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.

Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.

Bye
Andreas


Probably because in most US clubs, that $800 a year can only support
the airport, towplanes, a couple of two seat trainers, a couple of low
performance single seaters and maybe a ASK-21 or G-103.

To allow everybody to fly a LS-4 on the weekends would require maybe 1
LS-4 to 4 or 5 club members, if half of them showed up on the same day
and all got to fly for 2-3 hours.

So buying a $40,000 glider for 5 people would require a loan payment
of $6000/year plus insurance/maint of $1000/year. Ignoring other
expenses that still adds up to $1400/year/person.

I assumed 10% interest for 10 years.

So how does the math work out at your club ?

Todd Smith
3S



  #58  
Old January 30th 09, 08:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Silent[_2_]
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Posts: 36
Default Short Wings Gliders

At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it

possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

Andreas


How many flights and how many hours do they typically fly
for a price that hardly exceeds $800.

Tows, winch?

Any other expense?

In this regard Italy is not certainly part of Europe!!!!
  #59  
Old January 30th 09, 08:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andreas Maurer
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Posts: 345
Default Short Wings Gliders

On 30 Jan 2009 18:30:03 GMT, Dan Silent wrote:

At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it

possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

Andreas


How many flights and how many hours do they typically fly
for a price that hardly exceeds $800.


In my club:
Unlimited number of flights and hours, typically the fleet of 7
gliders does around 2.100 flights per year with about 1.700 hrs in
average.
In average 85-90 active pilots.
A keen student pilot easily manages 80 - 100 flights per year.


Tows, winch?

Usually winch (of course).

Any other expense?

No other expense.

These fees include a 255 Euro "flat rate" for an unlimited number of
winch launches and an unlimited number of flying hours. Member fee per
year is 64 Euro for student pilots and 128 Euro for members with an
income. At the current exchange rates this is about $500. Most German
clubs are slightly more expensive, this is why I mentioned the number
of $800.

The only additional fees are aerotows with a typical cost of 24
Euro/aerotow.




Bye
Andreas
  #60  
Old January 30th 09, 08:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default Short Wings Gliders

On Jan 30, 9:56*am, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?


Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany *it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic *training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.

Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.

Bye
Andreas


Lets see, why? Mmmm.... Population density differences. Differences in
geographic scale - i.e. borrowing glider to haul long distances to a
competition would often have more impact on a club in the USA. A long
history of established clubs in Europe that just is not here in the
USA. USA clubs and commercial operations with many klunky basic
trainers and natural inertia to get off this/sometimes a rigid belief
that is a much better approach than glass ships. Lower cost and more
interesting sports like hang gliding and paragliding that have been
particularly strong in the USA. A higher cost basis (e.g. less winch
operations in the USA) which suppresses ability to spend money on a
more modern fleet. A pilot licensing system that has nothing to do
with encouraging the sport or XC flying. A mishandling of XC training/
transition at many clubs and commercial operations that sees a huge
drop off in licensed pilots who never go XC let alone ever compete in
a contest (numbers comparing Europe to the USA would be interesting).
An economic inability to purchase newer fleets (remember the USA
buying power for European glass has been hurting). And on an on..

Instead of worrying about the gloom there are clubs in the USA that
get people into standard class and higher performance double seaters
ASAP and promote XC flying and loaning out gliders for camps and
safari's etc. I also strongly believe clubs need a Duo Discus or
DG-1000S class two seater ships for cross country mentoring and just
to have gliders in their fleet to interest/get new members to aspire
to. Bay Area Soaring Associates is an example or a club with a
DG-1000S and DG-505 (and a several standard class single seaters
etc.)

The other difference in the USA is there are relatively more
commercial operators than in Europe. And what is a club in one place
and a commercial operation can be all blurred. In California if I want
to fly something besides my ASH-26E I can rent an ASW-24 or similar,
Duo Discus and even an ASH-25 at very reasonable rates (and without
any hassles of club membership, maintenance etc). However as with
clubs what you find with commercial operators vary widely (clubs and
operators with gliders not set up for proper XC drive me nuts, crappy
varios, insufficient batteries, radios that don't work, no pee tube,
etc. and they wonder why they can't attract members...). Most
commercial operators are not going to want gliders leaving on safaris
or contests etc. (but it can happen at times).

Getting back to the original thread, adding another glider contest
class would do nothing to encourage an increase in gliding and is
likely to just make more work for everybody. If there is a informal
class of gliders that is organically successful and being held back
due to lack of formally organized contests or lack of class rules/
standardization between designs then by all means draw up another FAI
class. I suspect there is naturally something just anti-low cost
associated in establishing a conventional (not-one design) racing
class. Innovation within the class and the willingness of pilots to
pay for race winning designs drive up costs. And at the other extreme
where chasing a one-design type class where the performance is too low
to be an easy to fly XC machine - I think the oft used ~40:1 wisdom is
an interesting break point (there are two places I fly frequently
where a PW5, Russian or Sparrowhawk type glider is a non-starter since
I could not make typical final glide back from where the lift is).

If you want to lower costs you need reasonable volume and given the
thing is going to cost a reasonable amount of money you need to make
sure it is appealing enough to a wide audience even if that involves
stretching wingspan, and costs, to get into a performance sweetspot
(we can argue about what that sweetspot). Especially when compared to
the bang for the buck achieved when purchasing a used standard (or
15m) glider. Then just to top it off the World Class effort really
screwed up by having a design that just looks like a pregnant guppy. A
bit of a handicap in encourage the buzz and excitement a new class
would need. (Sorry PW5 owners, and I know many of you do some great
impressive flights in the PW5 and have blast in it.).


Darryl
 




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