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Short Wings Gliders



 
 
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  #71  
Old January 30th 09, 10:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Brian Bange[_2_]
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Posts: 34
Default Short Wings Gliders

Here are some local statistics - Houston TX area:

At my club we had 9 short wing gliders last season.
*One PW5 is a club ship and was flown in the World class
nationals by a member.
*4 PW5's are private and only one does not go X/C.
*3 Russia's are private, 2 go X/C and the third is working
toward that goal.
*One Woodstock is flown X/C by its builder on a regular basis.
*4 of the pilots have attended at least one X/C camp at a
location hundreds of miles away.
*All of the owners are over 50 except one.
*Two of the Russia's were sold this winter and the members are
moving up to 15M ships.

Here the short wing ships are doing what the SSA intended:
allowing prospective X/C pilots to buy affordable ships that are
relatively new and have performance that is good enough to go
X/C. I guess "affordable" should be used carefully, as we are all
"older" and probably have more disposable income than the
younger members. I have only seen one "youngster" buy a ship
in the last 5 years. I think disposable income is shrinking for our
younger pilots. I don't see as many these days, but perhaps I
am just no longer paying attention.

So... If our group of older pilots represents a larger group of
pilots nationwide (debatable) then competitions might want to be
oriented to fulfill their wants and desires. From personal
experience I can tell you this group of newbies does not want to
spend time getting their noses rubbed in the dirt by a bunch of
super pilots flying super ships. If you want them them to go to a
race IMHO, make it more like a camp or a mentoring program
and hold it separately from the longer wing competitions. Lots of
us just want to go fly with like minded friends. Some will feel
competitive, many will attend just to learn and build stick time. I
really think we need to look at this in a whole new way to make
it successful. Low stress, high fun factor.

I can tell you that within our club, we have doubled the number
of X/C pilots in the last 5 years. X/C has really come alive
because of the short wings.

Brian
  #72  
Old January 30th 09, 10:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Udo Rumpf[_2_]
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Posts: 49
Default Short Wings Gliders

How much of that $4500.00 was in tow?
Udo


At 20:07 30 January 2009, John Smith wrote:
Andreas Maurer wrote:

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.


$800 ist *very* optimistic. It may be true for your club, but it
certainly isn't typical, not even in Europe.

I flew around 100 hours on club gliders last year, typically on LS8 or
DG1000, fully equiped with LX5000. (Ok, on some days when many pilots
showed up I had to take an LS4, which is our low-end glider...) All my
flights were cross country and usually I had a glider for my own for the


whole day (or a double seater with a second pilot).

This cost me around $4500 (beer not included). Which is still much less
than the annual cost I would have to pay for my own glider. And we
launch exclusively by aerotow.

  #73  
Old January 30th 09, 10:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
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Posts: 256
Default Short Wings Gliders

So that sounds like around 12 active pilots per glider, with unlimited
hours. How do you manage contention for the gliders on the weekends?


I can't answer for Andreas, and 12 pilots per seat seems a little much.
In my club the relation is about 6 Pilots per seat.

Granted, if every single pilot wanted to fly cross country each
week-end, it wouldn't work. But do *you* fly every flyable day? Most
pilots have a also life outside gliding.

Most pilots don't fly each week-end. There are many pilots who fly
little, maybe 20 hours a year. There are pilots who are happy to fly two
hours locally on a sunday, they can easily share a glider. There are
retired pilots who don't show up on the week-ends but fly during the
weekdays when the rest of us must work. And then there are the camps.
European clubs usually organise camps during the holidays. There are
pilots who only fly in those camps. Others don't join the camps, because
they want to spend their holidays with their family.

Bottom line: The load balances. With the relation of 6 pilots per seat I
*never* didn't get a glider on sunday. Maybe not exactly the one I
wanted, but always something flyble and almost always a glider for me
alone for the whole day.
  #74  
Old January 30th 09, 10:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Posts: 1,345
Default Short Wings Gliders

On Jan 30, 1:25*pm, toad wrote:

Bob,

I've been following the HP-24 pages for a while. *I can't see creating
a HP-24 in a "modest" amount of time, but send me the brochure ! * I
would be very excited.


Most of the time we've spent on the project has been dedicated to
making tooling and developing prototypes. I figure the actual build
time for the finalized kit will be down around 350 hours.

The only thing we have in the way of a brochure is he

http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/web_24_3view7.pdf

Thanks, Bob K.
  #75  
Old January 30th 09, 10:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Derek Copeland[_2_]
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Posts: 146
Default Short Wings Gliders

At 21:15 30 January 2009, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 19:23 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

In my club:
Unlimited number of flights and hours, typically the fleet of 7
gliders does around 2.100 flights per year with about 1.700 hrs in
average.
In average 85-90 active pilots.


So that sounds like around 12 active pilots per glider, with unlimited
hours. How do you manage contention for the gliders on the weekends?

Jim Beckman

Many European clubs have a ballot for the club gliders with a limit on the
time you can local soar, although cross-countries are unlimited. If you
don't *win* a glider in the ballot, and you don't mind waiting around
for a few hours you can usually get to fly later on in the day. The worst
case scenario is everyone flying off cross-country and landing out, in
which case you will be a 'crew'. Usually a good way of getting a meal
and some free beers though, and you will build up some 'credit' for when
you land out.

Derek Copeland
  #76  
Old January 30th 09, 10:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
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Posts: 256
Default Short Wings Gliders

Lower cost and more
interesting sports like hang gliding and paragliding that have been
particularly strong in the USA.


If you want to fly something modestly attractive, paragliding is bot
cheaper than gliding at all. And not more interesting, either. Most
paragliders I know look with envy to the gliders. (Don't ask me why they
don't change, though.)

Another point is competition from power flying, which is a much more
attractive proposition in the US. I believe I'm correct in thinking that
flying power in most of Europe is much more expensive (and more highly
restricted) than in the US.


I don't know a single glider pilot who doesn't think that power flying
is just plain dull. Certainly useful, but nevertheless dull.
  #77  
Old January 30th 09, 10:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
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Posts: 256
Default Short Wings Gliders

Udo Rumpf wrote:

How much of that $4500.00 was in tow?


Roughly said: We have a flat member fee of roughly $2000 which includes
everything except tows. So the rest was obviously the tows.

  #78  
Old January 30th 09, 10:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
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Posts: 256
Default Short Wings Gliders

How much of that $4500.00 was in tow?

Roughly said: We have a flat rate member fee of roughly $2000 which includes
everything except tows. So the rest was obviously the tows.


I forgot to add: Our tow fees are pretty high, we actually earn money
with the tows which helps keep the flat rate fee down.
  #79  
Old January 30th 09, 11:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Silent[_2_]
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Posts: 36
Default Short Wings Gliders SW HIGH FUN LOW STRESS CLASS

At 21:30 30 January 2009, Brian Bange wrote:

At my club we had 9 short wing gliders last season.


.....I can tell you this group of newbies does not want to
spend time getting their noses rubbed in the dirt by a bunch of super

pilots flying super ships. If you want them them to go to a race IMHO,
make it more like a camp or a mentoring program and hold it separately
from the longer wing competitions. Lots of us just want to go fly with
like minded friends.

LESS THEN 10 PCT OF GLIDER PILOTS COMPETE!
THE USED MARKET IS FILLED BY THE GLIDERS THEY SOLD....
THOSE GLIDERS WERE DESIGNED TO WIN, OF COURSE!!!

Some will feel competitive, many will attend just to learn and build

stick time. I really think we need to look at this in a whole new way to
make it successful.
Low stress, high fun factor.
I can tell you that within our club, we have doubled the number of X/C

pilots in the last 5 years. X/C has really come alive because of the
short wings.

Brian


WERE THOSE SHORT WINGS GLIDERS DESIGNED FOR FUN AND SAFE FLIGHTS?
OR WERE DESIGNED TO WIN IN THE NEW FAI CLASS:

THE SHORT WINGS HIGH FUN LOW STRESS CLASS

  #80  
Old January 30th 09, 11:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Brian Bange[_2_]
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Posts: 34
Default Short Wings Gliders SW HIGH FUN LOW STRESS CLASS

WERE THOSE SHORT WINGS GLIDERS DESIGNED FOR FUN
AND SAFE FLIGHTS?
OR WERE DESIGNED TO WIN IN THE NEW FAI CLASS:

THE SHORT WINGS HIGH FUN LOW STRESS CLASS

Most all were a product of the FAI's initiative to find a World
Class ship. I believe one requirement was that they were
designed to be easy to fly. In my experience with the Russia,
PW5 and L-33, they are. I believe all the FAI is trying to do is
include these ships into the World Class and handicap it, so as
to grow the class. If something new and more competitive
comes along, it will have to live under it's handicap, so where is
the advantage to making something that is hard to handle?

Brian
 




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