#1 Jet of World War II

the P-59 was never intended for combat
use.

Hap Arnold certainly thought he was getting a combat airplane in the
P-59A (not to be confused with the never-built P-59). If he'd wanted a
test-bed, he could have ordered something on the order of the Gloster
Carter Farter or the little Heinkel.

This thread is a bit silly. There was only one jet fighter in WWII,
and that was the Me 262. Getting there too late for combat (P-80)
doesn't count. Chasing V-1s (Meteor) doesn't count. Being deemed
unsuitable for combat (P-59A) doesn't count. The only thing that
counts is shooting down enemy aircraft.

Anyone who has followed my postings on the German air force knows that
I'm not a greater admirer of its war-fighting record. But in the case
of the Me-262, the Germans built a handsome, innovative, and
terrifying war machine. We can all be grateful that it came too late
to make any difference in how the air battle over Germany worked out.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 06:09:22 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

This thread is a bit silly. There was only one jet fighter in WWII,
and that was the Me 262. Getting there too late for combat (P-80)
doesn't count. Chasing V-1s (Meteor) doesn't count. Being deemed
unsuitable for combat (P-59A) doesn't count. The only thing that
counts is shooting down enemy aircraft.

The Meteors did force down a Storch.... That's a little unfair, they
also made several strafing claims. They were too late to have any
significance, but this also applies (to a lesser extent) to the 262 as
you point out.

Gavin Bailey
--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

ubject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/5/03 1:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

the 2nd Tactical Air Force at the time in question, please pass on the
information.

No. I served in the 344th Bomb Group, 494th Bomb Squadron of the 99th wing
of
the 9th Air force,

So you didn't serve in 2nd TAF or experience operations on the 2nd
TAF area of operations? If n

I would be interested in your experiences with the 2nd TAF. Y'know basic simple
stuff .Missions flown. Targets attacked. Y'know, simple stuff. We guys who led
the charge flying the tip of the spear gotta stick together.It's only right.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 05 Jul 2003 12:59:18 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

If you really want to play with your own straw men so much, tell me
about your personal, first-hand knowledge of Geoffrey Chaucer. It's
only right.

Gavin Bailey

You tell me yours. I'll tell you mine.

I have no-first hand experience of Geoffrey Chaucer in person
whatsoever.

Your turn.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

This thread is a bit silly. There was only one jet fighter in WWII,
and that was the Me 262. Getting there too late for combat (P-80)
doesn't count. Chasing V-1s (Meteor) doesn't count.


Why doesn't chasing V-1s count?



Being deemed
unsuitable for combat (P-59A) doesn't count. The only thing that
counts is shooting down enemy aircraft.


Why isn't the V-1 an enemy aircraft?

We can all be grateful that it came too late
to make any difference in how the air battle over Germany worked out.

Agreed, Dan. As Hap Arnold said a few days after the war as he watched a
captured Me 262 thunder past him at an Allied airfield, "We really got
lucky..."

v/r
Gordon

Probably 'cause it's considered a "flying bomb" or an early cruise
missile. Technically, it IS an enemy aircraft since it has wings &
flies, but it wasn't piloted & wasn't much of an adversary in that
aspect.

"Gordon" wrote in message
...
We can all be grateful that it came too late
to make any difference in how the air battle over Germany worked out.

Agreed, Dan. As Hap Arnold said a few days after the war as he watched a
captured Me 262 thunder past him at an Allied airfield, "We really got
lucky..."


"Hap" Arnold was at times given to hyperbole. For example, upon seeing a
demonstration for the first time of an early-model Mosquito, he blurted,
"We've (the Allies) won the war!" Perhaps he meant that remark in terms of
qualitave measures.

That the Me-262 was not a sgnificant a/c had exactly nothing to do with
luck. Allied depredations against the sources of proper materiels for its
turbine construction (and against all other German jet engines to boot)
combined with relentless bombing attacks on its formal production facilities
and fuel sources as well as the lines of communication from factory to
airfield meant that no more than perhaps 200 such underdeveloped,
short-ranged a/c were ever available to the Luftwaffe on a given day.

The great majority of Me-262s were either bombed to bits at their factories
or strafed into ribbons on their airfields. If either side were "lucky" it
was Germany, not the Allies, because the latter elected not to seriously
explore applications of jet-propulsion until some point in 1943.

Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: Bill Shatzer
Date: 7/5/03 11:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:





On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, Mike Dargan wrote:

Frank May wrote:

Probably 'cause it's considered a "flying bomb" or an early cruise
missile. Technically, it IS an enemy aircraft since it has wings &
flies, but it wasn't piloted & wasn't much of an adversary in that
aspect.

Pretty scary to shoot at--especially if you manage to set of a ton of
high explosive right in front of you.

Hardly scarier than shooting at a bomber with 3 to 6 tons (or more) of
explosives on board.

And, unlike a V-1, the bomber can shoot back.

Cheers and all,


Like everything else in war, you are not supposed to like it , you are just
supposed to do it .If it belongs to the enemy, you kill it.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

If either side were "lucky" it
was Germany, not the Allies, because the latter elected not to seriously
explore applications of jet-propulsion until some point in 1943.

This would come as a great surprise to Frank Whittle, the Gloster
company, and the Air Ministry, and even Hap Arnold, GE, and Bell in
the United States, all of whom were vigorously pursuing turbojet
fighters by the end of 1941. The Germans had a bit of an edge (and
they did take it more seriously before September 1939), but they
exploited the edge to better effect than the Allies did. Even today,
the Me-262 is a very impressive airplane.

Point well-taken, Cub Driver,...except...,that in comparison to the monies
involved in perfecting piston engines and airframes to which to fit them,
the Allies had not placed turbine propulsion on the front burner. Lockheed,
for example, was rebuffed when it approached the USAAC with its earliest
jet-fighter proposal (a stainless steel, cannon-amed twin-axial-flow
turbojet employing boundary-layer control and a front-mounted canard with
operating altitudes upwards of 50,000 ft and speed of about 625 mph or so).

Instead, Bell AC was awarded the first development contracts, and the result
was the P-59, an overweight, underpowered a/c with little scope for
development.

Lockheed had to wait until 1943 before being given the go-ahead on what
became the P-80, employing a British-designed centrifugal-flow turbojet and
was never provided funding for the r&d on either its propietary axial-flow
turbojet engine or its airframe.

Where I can't agree with you yet is over whether the Me-262 is impressive.
Seems to me that a fighter which has trouble getting airborne, trouble
staying airborne for more than 25 minutes and which is unable to complete a
turn while over a single county was of any real use to the Reich. The
victory claims (as you, especially, have reason to understand) attributed to
this a/c were highly inflated. The a/c's airframe and engines were
underdeveloped, and as a consequence it was as much of a threat to its
pilots as was enemy action.

I read Mr. Whittle's bio a few years ago. IIRC, all he needed was official
backing (i.e., money) and he could have produced and perfected his gem far
earlier than historically.