Night bombers interception in Western Europe in 1944

The problem the Germans had in combat was that the range of the German
radars was limited to the altitude of the aircraft since the beam was
very broad.

Not true - that was a limitation, but Nachtjägers didn't see AI in the same way
as Allied NF, so that limitation wasn't viewed as an Achilles Heal, more of an
annoyance.

They considered AI to be an arrow in the quiver, not their primary search tool.
US and RAF crews reporting a "bent gadget" turned around and went home; German
crews just turned it off and continued on their mission.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

Subject: Night bombers interception in Western Europe in 1944
From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 7/14/2004 8:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I took off on every mission with the knowledge that in
case of dire emergency I would probably die in the nose of Willie the Wolf.


As sad as it is, you were right. Glad that situation never happened, Art.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Under the best of conditions escape from th nose of a Marauder is difficult.
but if the co-pilot is killed, escape is impossible and the nose can become
your coffin. Go to my website and click on "BOB". He was our co-pilot and he is
what I saw when I looked over my right shoulder. The only way out of the nose
is under his feet with his help to keep my chute harness from hanging up on the
engine controls. If he dies or is badly wounded, my exit is blocked totally.
One day he took a hit from a 20mm shell that came into the cockpit from an ME
-109. Go to my website and read "I'm Hit, I'm hit" for the whole story.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
What sort of problems faced a defender in attempting to intercept and
shoot down night bombers in 1944?

Not having enough aviation fuel was a big problem late in 1944. Earlier,
the
Germans had a pretty good handle on it, as the 3/30/44 raid to Nuremburg
showed.

They nightfighters whacked at least 80 Brit bombers, total lost that
night
94-96.

The British had to suspend their night ops over Germany. That's not well
known
because they were put onto invasion targets in the same time frame.

Probably because its untrue

The simple fact is that during March 1944 bomber command flew a total
of 9031 sorties with a loss rate of under 4%. Nuremburg was indeed a
disaster
but an isolated one. The following month the number of sorties was HIGHER
and losses were around 2.6%.

Raids on Germany occurred on almost every night with raids being made on
Berlin , Hanover, Osnabruck, Dusseldorf, Kiel and Cologne.

Examples include :-

Cologne - raided on 20th by 357 Lancasters and 22 Mosquitos of Nos 1, 3, 6
and 8 Groups. 4 Lancasters lost. This concentrated attack fell into areas of
Cologne which were north and west of the city centre and partly industrial
in nature. 192 industrial premises suffered various degrees of damage,
together with 725 buildings described as 'dwelling-houses with commercial
premises attached'. 7 railway stations or yards were also severely damaged

Dusseldorf - heavily hit on the 22nd by 596 aircraft - 323 Lancasters, 254
Halifaxes, 19 Mosquitos - of all groups except No 5. 29 aircraft - 16
Halifaxes and 13 Lancasters - lost, 4.9 percent of the force. 2,150 tons of
bombs were dropped in this heavy attack on a German city which caused much
destruction. The attack fell mostly in the northern districts of Düsseldorf.
Widespread damage was caused. On the same evening 238 Lancasters and 17
Mosquitos of No 5 Group and 10 Lancasters of No 1 Group were despatched to
Brunswick. Few German fighters were attracted to this raid and only 4
Lancasters were lost, 1.5 per cent of the force

Karlsruhe - 24 April was attacked by 637 aircraft - 369 Lancasters, 259
Halifaxes, 9 Mosquitos of all groups except No 5 Group. 19 aircraft - 11
Lancasters, 8 Halifaxes - lost, 3.0 per cent of the force

Essen - 26 April was bombed by 493 aircraft 342 Lancasters, 133 Halifaxes,
18 Mosquitos.
7 aircraft - 6 Lancasters, 1 Halifax were lost, 1.4 per cent of the force.

Keith

"Bernardz" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b5fa98a6738c8b2989adb@news...
What sort of problems faced a defender in attempting to intercept and
shoot down night bombers in 1944?

I am interested both over Germany and Britain.

--
Logically we attempt to devise reasons for our irrational behaviour.

Observations of Bernard - No 62


The Lufwaffe Nachtjakgt at faced a number of problems in intercepting
bombers depending on the period in question. At the beginning of the water
on radar was actually quite good possibly the most advanced in the world
they had radars such as Freya for long range detection and more accurate
radars such as Wurzburg for tracking individual targets accurately.
Somewhat later a very effective airborne interception radar known as
Lichtenstein came into use. The flaw with these radars was that they
actually utilised similar frequencies. Although the Germans were aware of
the use of chaff or window (they had developed their own version called
Duppel) such secrecy was placed upon Duppel that countermeasures were not
ready in time. In one stroke the RAF was able to jam all three radars. The
Luftwaffe for a time had to resort to wild boar tactics which involved
single engined fighters equipped with special navigation equipment but with
no radar.

The Germans were eventually able to develop counter countermeasures, for
instance wurzlaus was a device that relied on doppler effect to separate
moving targets from window, Nurenberg relied on propeler modulations.
They also had multiple alternate frequencies and frequency chirping against
against jamming. However in general they found it hard to keep up. Other
radars in use include Jagdschloss and Wasserman and Wurzburg Riese. One
problem of all of these radar systems was that they were big and expensive
although quite effective at long range detection of aircraft: (longwave
radar is in effect better than microwave radar for some purposes for
instance stealth technology is relatively ineffective against it.) These
long wave radars are extravagantly expensive. The whole system had to be
based on these expensive radars not just the early warning system.

Quite often when the German radar was working the link between the ground
and night fighter was not. This was in fact ion many occasions the most
serious problem. The introduction of the Bernhard-Bernhardine system
improve matters. This system was very jam proof it told a night fighter
exactly where was in that provided a secure telemetry to link the night
fighter with ground control by a ticker tape.

Because the German Lichtenstein radar had large aerials aircraft were slowed
down considerably this limited number of interceptions they were able to
achieve. Bomber command played on this by practising spoof and diversionary
rates: by the time the Germans worked out they had to burn up engines.

Ironically the Germans were ahead even in microwave radar. In 1934 they
tested 200mW microwave devices that could detect a Destroyer at over 1 km
but they could not produce enough power for more than this. Their microwave
and magnetron development team was disbanded in 1940 and workers sent into
the army! This team did have some good magnetrons but I believe they
probably only produced around 80 watts of power not the kilowatts required.
The team was hurriedly reassembled when a magnetron was discovered in a
crashed RAF bomber in Rotterdam.

The Nachtjagt remained of force to the end although it did not prevent the
destruction of Germany in every for instance an archivist could fly only 772
sorties during which they are shot down no fewer than 181 aircraft (equal
to 1.2 percent of the rating force) German losses were constant at 47 night
fighters.

The night fighter pilots maintained high morale and motivation to the end.
In five years this arm of the Luftwaffe underwent greater technical and
tactical change than any other branch of the Armed Forces.

The Lufwaffe Nachtjakgt

Well that looks interesting.

The
Luftwaffe for a time had to resort to wild boar tactics which involved
single engined fighters equipped with special navigation equipment but with
no radar.

The 'special navigation equipment' carried on Wilde Sau Bf 109s and FW 190s
consisted of a UV lamp and specially coated maps. The special nav features of
the FuG 16Z were not utilized because they would have required a personal
controller for each "Boar", so instead they were following the Reichjägerweile
(general information fighter broadcast - "The four-motor bombers are
approaching Kassel; all aircraft within range, strong raid approaching Kassel",
that sort of thing. No naviads in the cockpits of the Wilde Sau airmen I have
interviewed.


Quite often when the German radar was working the link between the ground
and night fighter was not.

They were being jammed and intruded upon for the last two years of the war.
When the voice RT was 'stepped on', most NJ pilots had their bordfunkers switch
to Morse, which was not as easier to operate in a dirty environment.

The introduction of the Bernhard-Bernhardine system
improve matters. This system was very jam proof it told a night fighter
exactly where was in that provided a secure telemetry to link the night
fighter with ground control by a ticker tape.

One cool part of that system is that it was the first on earth to provide a
blind landing capability, when hooked to a three-axis autopilot. The Interim
Nightfighter (Me 262 B-1a/U1) 'version 2' carried this setup, as did a couple
captured Ju 88 nightfighters.

Berndard was essentially an early datalink system intended for large bombers
but it evolved into a fighter director.that was quite advanced for its day.

Because the German Lichtenstein radar had large aerials aircraft were slowed
down considerably this limited number of interceptions they were able to
achieve.

Crews often scored 4, 5, or even more Abschusse in a single sortie. Other
Experten crews managed up to 7. Faster speed does not help a radar
interception of a slow target in low/zero visibility.


The night fighter pilots maintained high morale and motivation to the end.
In five years this arm of the Luftwaffe underwent greater technical and
tactical change than any other branch of the Armed Forces.

Probably true, although it should be weighed against the groud attack arm of
the airforce, that started the war in some cases with Henschel biplanes and
open cockpits and ended with Jets.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

Joel Ehrlich ) writes:

Or prehaps to greater effect, reinstalling the belly turrets they had removed
as "un-needed".

Did RAF bombers -ever- have belly turrets?

Certainly none of the "heavies". It was the dorsal turret which
was discontinued on some models.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

In message , WalterM140
writes



The Brits are hyper-defensive about the effect on target. The German war
machine was not significantly hindered by the British Area Campaign. The
Germans expended much fewer resources to defend than the Brits did to atttack.

Remind us again about the numbers of AA personnel and 88mm that were
considered necessary?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
Hi, Tom.

Sir, My father flew nightfighters during WW2 in the European theater,
(Beaufighters, then P-61's)

Soo, he was in the 415th or 422nd NFS, stationed in the Med and later
England/Belgium...? There is a small organization for P-61 crews that he
may
already know about. If not, I can put you/him in touch with the guys.

though I'm not familiar with either of those
books,I wonder if they could shed some light on his service to our
country.

You have to buy a book called "Queen of the Midnight Skies", about early
US
nightfighter efforts, particularly in the theater of war that your dad
experienced. Although the book is skewed toward the P-61 (*Badly*), the
authors interviewed dozens of survivors and give a great insider's view of
the
US entry into this new field of combat.

I've got a few medals but have no idea what he did to deserve them.

We can find out - sure about that.

I'm not
even sure what they are, one says DFC or something like that on the back,
the other is a silver star and two purple hearts. (I know what the Hearts
are for, duh!) Is there any way that you know of where I could "actually"
find out. He's been gone for over thirty years and I always wondered what
he
did to get them. Sorry if this comes off a little lame but I saw the
nightfighter thread and got interested...

Not lame at all - this is what most of us are "here" for.

BTW- As an xPanAm crew chief, you're completely correct, not the engine
is
"way better", though I've seen a few that did just that.

As a sidelight to the other thread (Extremis Intercomm), the worst thing I
heard on the radio out at sea was an A-7 gent announcing to the world,
"I'm
passing through 3,000 feet and I'm in a #$^$#ing GLIDER!"

My advice is to ALWAYS bring a second engine - you never know when it will
become your *only* engine.

Pleasure to meet you, Tom. Hope we can help you.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

Thanks, I really appreciate your help. IIRC, my Dad flew Beaufighters for 6
or 7 months then was switched to P-61's. I do remember him telling me he was
shot down once returning to base by allied AAA! and he was in Belgium. The
415th sounds really familiar,if my Mom ever gets off the web I'll call her
and find out the particulars. ( I should have never given her that
computer!!) Oh, one thing else I remember, his flight jacket had an emblem
of an owl(bird of some kind) holding a tommygun looking around in the dark
with a flashlight or a candle. I know I still have it packed away somewhere,
I'll look and see if I can find it. Once again, Thanks.

Tom

BTW- doing an Amazon on the book right now...

"Bill Shatzer" wrote in message
...
Joel Ehrlich ) writes:

Or prehaps to greater effect, reinstalling the belly turrets they had
removed
as "un-needed".

Did RAF bombers -ever- have belly turrets?

Certainly none of the "heavies". It was the dorsal turret which
was discontinued on some models.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

The only one I can think of was the Handley Page Hampden.....Didn't have a
very good reputation !!!

BMC

Subject: Night bombers interception in Western Europe in 1944
From: "Brian Colwell"
Date: 7/15/2004 7:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: VOGJc.35269$od7.1641@pd7tw3no


"Bill Shatzer" wrote in message
...
Joel Ehrlich ) writes:

Or prehaps to greater effect, reinstalling the belly turrets they had
removed
as "un-needed".

Did RAF bombers -ever- have belly turrets?

Certainly none of the "heavies". It was the dorsal turret which
was discontinued on some models.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

The only one I can think of was the Handley Page Hampden.....Didn't have a
very good reputation !!!

BMC

We offered to give the Brits B-17's each with a big fat belly turret.They
wouldn't take them. Big mistake.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer