ILS question

what was your exact instructions from the tower, its usually something like
cherokee xxx cleared for the LOC runways 27, maintain 5000 untill established
on the LOC

if you were told to maintain a altitude untill established, then as soon as
you were established on the LOC you could decend per your glideslope needle.

are you doing your training alone or with an instructor? I would suggest doing
most of this training with an instructor so that you pass your check ride.


Chris Brooks wrote:

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?

At 17 miles point, he's not on a published portion of the approach,
since he's not doing the hold-in-lieu of PT. He should have received a
crossing restriction until HAIGS, since the vector did not place him on
the localizer within the published portion of the approach.
Approach could have provided a radar initial and cleared him to 4000
until HAIGS, but without that clearance, he's stuck at the last assigned
altitude until reaching HAIGS. At that point he can descend to 4000 if
he needs a course reversal, or 2900 if he continues straight-in.
I'm sure 4000 is fine at that point, because that's what the
hold-in-lieu uses, but from a procedural (TERPS and ATC) standpoint the
only "straight-in" procedure track at 17 miles is a radar initial from
ATC, and that altitude needs to be specified by ATC. The pilot could
even have been cleared to 2900 if it met the radar MVAC, but either way,
ATC has to provide the altitude to the pilot outside HAIGS.

JPH

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.



In that case, you can descend to 4000 immediately. But why descend to 4000
at all? At the time you were cleared for the approach you were about 900
feet below the glideslope.

Jeff wrote:

what was your exact instructions from the tower, its usually something like
cherokee xxx cleared for the LOC runways 27, maintain 5000 untill established
on the LOC

if you were told to maintain a altitude untill established, then as soon as
you were established on the LOC you could decend per your glideslope needle.


The word "established" is to be used only when you're vectored onto a published
route or segment of an approach. In this case, 17 miles out, it would be an
altitude restriction until *crossing* the first published fix.

Thanks, that is a good reply.

Do you confirm that if you hear "cross HAIGS at 4000 feet", that you can
immediately descend from whatever altitude you are at. Say you are at 5,000
feet (as I was). If you hear that you can descend to 4,000? Usually won't
the controller issue you a descent to 4,000 and then the crossing
restriction? Such as "descend maintain 4,000... cross HAIGS at 4,000,
cleared ILS 27". What if they just said "descend maintain 4,000, cleared ILS
27"... is that not proper procedure?


"J Haggerty" wrote in message
news:B0JAc.20624$1L4.19005@okepread02...
At 17 miles point, he's not on a published portion of the approach,
since he's not doing the hold-in-lieu of PT. He should have received a
crossing restriction until HAIGS, since the vector did not place him on
the localizer within the published portion of the approach.
Approach could have provided a radar initial and cleared him to 4000
until HAIGS, but without that clearance, he's stuck at the last assigned
altitude until reaching HAIGS. At that point he can descend to 4000 if
he needs a course reversal, or 2900 if he continues straight-in.
I'm sure 4000 is fine at that point, because that's what the
hold-in-lieu uses, but from a procedural (TERPS and ATC) standpoint the
only "straight-in" procedure track at 17 miles is a radar initial from
ATC, and that altitude needs to be specified by ATC. The pilot could
even have been cleared to 2900 if it met the radar MVAC, but either way,
ATC has to provide the altitude to the pilot outside HAIGS.

JPH

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.



In that case, you can descend to 4000 immediately. But why descend to
4000
at all? At the time you were cleared for the approach you were about
900
feet below the glideslope.

Peter R. wrote:

Matt Whiting ) wrote:


That has been my experience flying practice approaches at ELM, BGM and
ITH.


Matt, at what airport are you based? I am out of Syracuse and I like to
fly a lot of my practice IFR flights into those airports you listed.


ELM.

Matt

are you doing your training alone or with an instructor? I would suggest
doing
most of this training with an instructor so that you pass your check ride.

Passing the check ride is not enough.
Once you have the ticket you have to prove
over and over that you are proficient

Chris Brooks wrote:
Thanks, that is a good reply.

Do you confirm that if you hear "cross HAIGS at 4000 feet", that you can
immediately descend from whatever altitude you are at. Say you are at 5,000
feet (as I was). If you hear that you can descend to 4,000? Usually won't
the controller issue you a descent to 4,000 and then the crossing
restriction? Such as "descend maintain 4,000... cross HAIGS at 4,000,
cleared ILS 27".

By providing an approach clearance and a crossing restriction, the
controller has authorized you to descend to that altitude immediately,
and to maintain that altitude until you reach the fix where the altitude
restriction applies.

What if they just said "descend maintain 4,000, cleared ILS
27"... is that not proper procedure?

No, that's similar to what was given to TWA 514 (the airliner crash that
initiated the requirement for specific altitudes and clearances). In
that situation, the pilot was established at 7000 when cleared for the
approach, but not yet on a published portion of the procedure. The rules
were less clear back then, but the pilot should have been told to
maintain a specific altitude, as well as a point where that altitude no
longer applied (i.e., maintain 7000 until crossing XXXXX). When the
controller says "maintain 4000" they're supposed to also state the point
where the 4000 restriction no longer applies. It should be "maintain
4000 until HAIGS" if you intercept East of HAIGS, or "4000 until
established on the localizer" if interception is inside of HAIGS. I'm
concerned that some controllers feel that intercepting a localizer
anywhere is all that is needed, but that only works if the localizer
intercept point is within a published part of the procedure, or for this
approach, inside HAIGS.
You can review the TWA crash details at
http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/sp9806.html

By providing an approach clearance and a crossing restriction, the
controller has authorized you to descend to that altitude immediately,
and to maintain that altitude until you reach the fix where the altitude
restriction applies.

Again, excellent reply... thank you for your help. Do you know where the
above is written? ATC handbook I am assuming, but what part?

Thanks again.

but passing the check ride is the first part.

Hankal wrote:

are you doing your training alone or with an instructor? I would suggest
doing
most of this training with an instructor so that you pass your check ride.

Passing the check ride is not enough.
Once you have the ticket you have to prove
over and over that you are proficient

Here's a note from the Air Traffic Control "bible"; FAAO 7110.65P

NOTE-
1. A descent clearance which specifies a crossing altitude authorizes
descent at pilot's discretion for that portion of the flight to which
the crossing altitude restriction applies.

This can be found here at this link;
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0405.html#4-5-7

You might also be interested in Example 4 under para 5-9-4. ARRIVAL
INSTRUCTIONS found at this link;
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0509.html#5-9-1

"Aircraft 4 is established on the final approach course beyond the
approach segments, 8 miles from Alpha at 6,000 feet. The MVA for this
area is 4,000 feet. "Eight miles from Alpha. Cross Alpha at or above
four thousand. Cleared I-L-S runway three six approach."
(See FIG 5-9-1.)"
The depicted situation is very similar to the first question posed
regarding the approach procedure.

JPH


Chris Brooks wrote:
By providing an approach clearance and a crossing restriction, the
controller has authorized you to descend to that altitude immediately,
and to maintain that altitude until you reach the fix where the altitude
restriction applies.


Again, excellent reply... thank you for your help. Do you know where the
above is written? ATC handbook I am assuming, but what part?

Thanks again.