Stop the noise

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote in message
news
"Tarver Engineering" wrote
If you do like Campbell and claim there can be no compromise possible
I
can assue you that all you will do is elimninate small GA.

..and if the other side says there is NO compromise, which many of them
do, then what?

Then when the issue winds up in civil Court that fact will injure their
case.

I've dealt personally with these types, the ones that loved
9/11 because we couldnt fly. The ones that say no improvement to
any traffic pattern is enough, only eliminating the airport and the
airplanes
will do, and glad to see a fatal accident take another airplane/pilot out
of the
equation - I'm not exagerating. Take a look again at
http://pages.prodigy.net/rockaway/ACNewsmenu.htm
this is the kind of nutcases we're talking about here.

The original poster seems a rational man being harrassed by an individual
pilot for the most part, but I agree that their are nutcases attacked to the
noise issue.

The guy who puts
this craphole website together hates everything and everybody: pilots,
controllers, politicians, aircraft manufacturers, and even some of his
anti-aviation counterparts! These are the real problem, a lunatic
fringe. Most of the neighbors I've dealt with are not like this, they're
pretty hot at first, but not off the deep end like STN and this other
clown. Like I said in a previous post, there is no dealing with some
people, try as you may.

Mullachy is catching on.

"Paul Sengupta" wrote
He said that the movement is making things worse for some people by
concentrating the noise...

I've seen it here, the politically connected (or they have something the
city wants) almosts moves the downwind beyond glide range just to
avoid a couple homes, and I do mean a couple - just to put us all over
a crowded subdivision.

That is a bad idea.

"Mike Spera" wrote in message
...
Yep, 06C it is. The procedure is voluntary, but, as I said, there are
citizen "police" recording which based pilots don't play along. I
usually try not to trigger the governmental immune system by not looking
like a virus (low keyed, non confrontational). So, I play along. After
all, if I fly a "normal" pattern out of RWY 11, I may broadside someone
flying the "voluntary" procedure.

I often wondered how much it would cost to move the two cronies.

There is that swamp off to the south east.

Gotta
be cheaper than the loss of a life running this goofy pattern.

Mike

Dave Stadt wrote:
Sounds like Schaumburg. The departure procedures to the east are absurd
and
dangerous. Ought to be a law against such nonsense. Far as I know the
procedures are voluntary.

"Mike Spera" wrote in message
...

Interesting debate. I too have no use for old cranks who live near an
airport and constantly complain about the noise. But, aerobatic practice
boxes are not published anywhere. Not sure I can defend a "tough $*^!"
attitude on the part of aerobatic jockeys.

We have a similar problem. I have owned an airplane for over ten years.
We live a couple of miles down the road from the airport. We could live
closer, BUT we chose to live here because we did not want to put up with
the noise. Now, 2 old cranks (hey, I'm over 50, I can say it) have
harassed their village and the police enough that a "noise abatement"
procedure was put in place. To avoid bothering these fine citizens (who
bought homes right next to an airport that preceded their houses by 20
years), airplanes now must fly an extended 2.5 mile upwind to, you
guessed it, my house.

I have to draw the line here pardner. My house was here before THE
PATTERN was moved. In addition, flying this non-standard, 2+ mile upwind
is inherently DANGEROUS to those transients who are not aware of this
absurd procedure. It puts aircraft dangerously close (2 miles) to
O'Hare's innermost ring. The 2 crabbies also had touch and gos
eliminated in this "procedure". They even have "airport volunteers" park
their keesters at the airport with a handheld radio to record any
"violators". Those N-numbers based at the airport are sent reminders if
they violate this unsafe, voluntary procedure. For a time, they were
even contemplating terminating the lease (hangar/tiedown) of repeat
"violators". It appears the village attorney talked some sense into them
and they dropped the threat. They have taken in over $10 million in
federal funds and this type of action might attract the FAA into the
fray.

So, I can see the beef to some extent. At least move the box around so
the same homes don't get pummeled forever.

Flexibility won't kill you, but inflexibility might. Remember, you're in
RANGE!!!

Good Luck,
Mike





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47N is one (#16 out of 32) of the airports I'll fly into this summer on my
4,500nm odyssey, of course theres no mention of any special procedures
on my printed out AOPA kneeboard chart for the airport.
Then again, so is BED (#12), where the pilots being sued are based.
Hope during this trip I don't do something that is forbidden locally
but not known beyond the local pilots. Nearly all the 'violations'
at our airport are by pilots not based here, they have no knowledge
of our voluntary noise abatement procedure. They still get a
nastygram in the mail though.
Chris



"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Dave Stadt wrote:

The departure procedures to the east are absurd and
dangerous. Ought to be a law against such nonsense.

There's a complainer that lives off the western end of the runway at 47N.
They
initiated a procedure to try to placate her. Every aircraft was expected
to make a 45
degree left turn about 100 yards from the end of the runway. About a year
after that
went into effect, a Cherokee stalled immediately after turning and
pancaked into a
golf course, killing both occupants. They're back to straight out
departures now.

George Patterson
Treason is ne'er successful, Sir; what then be the reason? Why, if
treason
be successful, Sir, then none dare call it treason.

SeeAndAvoid wrote:

47N is one (#16 out of 32) of the airports I'll fly into this summer on my
4,500nm odyssey, of course theres no mention of any special procedures
on my printed out AOPA kneeboard chart for the airport.

AFAIK, there are no special procedures there now. John Price teaches there, though,
and he can provide the most current info.

George Patterson
Treason is ne'er successful, Sir; what then be the reason? Why, if treason
be successful, Sir, then none dare call it treason.

In article ,
Mike Spera wrote:

Yep, 06C it is. The procedure is voluntary, but, as I said, there are
citizen "police" recording which based pilots don't play along. I
usually try not to trigger the governmental immune system by not looking
like a virus (low keyed, non confrontational). So, I play along. After
all, if I fly a "normal" pattern out of RWY 11, I may broadside someone
flying the "voluntary" procedure.

I often wondered how much it would cost to move the two cronies. Gotta
be cheaper than the loss of a life running this goofy pattern.


You are close enough to Chicago that Louie, Vito, Bruno or Guido should
be able to come out and give you a hand!



Mike

Dave Stadt wrote:
Sounds like Schaumburg. The departure procedures to the east are absurd
and
dangerous. Ought to be a law against such nonsense. Far as I know the
procedures are voluntary.

"Mike Spera" wrote in message
...

Interesting debate. I too have no use for old cranks who live near an
airport and constantly complain about the noise. But, aerobatic practice
boxes are not published anywhere. Not sure I can defend a "tough $*^!"
attitude on the part of aerobatic jockeys.

We have a similar problem. I have owned an airplane for over ten years.
We live a couple of miles down the road from the airport. We could live
closer, BUT we chose to live here because we did not want to put up with
the noise. Now, 2 old cranks (hey, I'm over 50, I can say it) have
harassed their village and the police enough that a "noise abatement"
procedure was put in place. To avoid bothering these fine citizens (who
bought homes right next to an airport that preceded their houses by 20
years), airplanes now must fly an extended 2.5 mile upwind to, you
guessed it, my house.

I have to draw the line here pardner. My house was here before THE
PATTERN was moved. In addition, flying this non-standard, 2+ mile upwind
is inherently DANGEROUS to those transients who are not aware of this
absurd procedure. It puts aircraft dangerously close (2 miles) to
O'Hare's innermost ring. The 2 crabbies also had touch and gos
eliminated in this "procedure". They even have "airport volunteers" park
their keesters at the airport with a handheld radio to record any
"violators". Those N-numbers based at the airport are sent reminders if
they violate this unsafe, voluntary procedure. For a time, they were
even contemplating terminating the lease (hangar/tiedown) of repeat
"violators". It appears the village attorney talked some sense into them
and they dropped the threat. They have taken in over $10 million in
federal funds and this type of action might attract the FAA into the fray.

So, I can see the beef to some extent. At least move the box around so
the same homes don't get pummeled forever.

Flexibility won't kill you, but inflexibility might. Remember, you're in
RANGE!!!

Good Luck,
Mike




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In no way, shape or form are the pilots involved saying "tough $*^!" to the "Stop the Noise"
people. They have been working for years in good faith to try and reach a settlement that
everyone can live with. These people in the Shirley area are out to ban *all* recreational
flying and now motorcycles as well.

The aerobatic boxes have been shuffled around, altitudes scrutinized, the works. If this suit
succeeds, aerobatic flight over most of the East Coast of the United States will be a thing of
the past. The entire area will be declared "congested" by the courts.

As a Mass. pilot who has been following this thing for some time (and even peripherally involved
in it) I can assureyou nobody is just trying to blow these people off: this has become a test
of survival for non-commercial aviation.

Dave Reinhart


Mike Spera wrote:

Interesting debate. I too have no use for old cranks who live near an
airport and constantly complain about the noise. But, aerobatic practice
boxes are not published anywhere. Not sure I can defend a "tough $*^!"
attitude on the part of aerobatic jockeys.

We have a similar problem. I have owned an airplane for over ten years.
We live a couple of miles down the road from the airport. We could live
closer, BUT we chose to live here because we did not want to put up with
the noise. Now, 2 old cranks (hey, I'm over 50, I can say it) have
harassed their village and the police enough that a "noise abatement"
procedure was put in place. To avoid bothering these fine citizens (who
bought homes right next to an airport that preceded their houses by 20
years), airplanes now must fly an extended 2.5 mile upwind to, you
guessed it, my house.

I have to draw the line here pardner. My house was here before THE
PATTERN was moved. In addition, flying this non-standard, 2+ mile upwind
is inherently DANGEROUS to those transients who are not aware of this
absurd procedure. It puts aircraft dangerously close (2 miles) to
O'Hare's innermost ring. The 2 crabbies also had touch and gos
eliminated in this "procedure". They even have "airport volunteers" park
their keesters at the airport with a handheld radio to record any
"violators". Those N-numbers based at the airport are sent reminders if
they violate this unsafe, voluntary procedure. For a time, they were
even contemplating terminating the lease (hangar/tiedown) of repeat
"violators". It appears the village attorney talked some sense into them
and they dropped the threat. They have taken in over $10 million in
federal funds and this type of action might attract the FAA into the fray.

So, I can see the beef to some extent. At least move the box around so
the same homes don't get pummeled forever.

Flexibility won't kill you, but inflexibility might. Remember, you're in
RANGE!!!

Good Luck,
Mike

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On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:05:21 +0100, "Paul Sengupta"
wrote:

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:43:04 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

Do you have such a technological solution?

Noise limits on aircraft in Europe have shown that noise
reduction is not only possible, but it can be a way of life.

http://www.hliese.de/International/international.html

The unfortunate thing is that if you import an aircraft fitted
with one of these into the UK, you have to remove it as it's
not approved by the CAA. Such is life. They have a UK
dealer though! :-) Maybe some are getting approvals now.

Mufflers for airplanes, or rather more efficient ones.
Most of the planes I've flown made far more noise with the prop than
the engine.

If I still had the 2 blade prop I think I could put straight pipes on
and you'd never know the difference.




How much will it cost?

Ummm... Less than a law suit?

http://www.hliese.de/Preis-02/preis-02.htm

Given the fact that most aerobatic aircraft are equipped with constant
speed propellers, it would be interesting to note the reduction
propeller noise generation during aerobatic maneuvers with the prop
control less than firewalled.

My POH states that aerobatics should be performed with the
prop set to 2600 rpm. Red-line is 2700. It's a CS prop.

Perhaps there are simple, inexpensive,
compromise solutions that could be adopted without significant impact
on performance.

Spreading out the area used over a wider area so people
under a practise area aren't affected all the time?

The police helicopters nightly patrolling overhead in the '70s were so
loud that they woke the slumber of those who they purported to
protect. Now they are so silent, that they are no longer an issue.

Well, they can still keep me awake! I've had a police helicopter
hover near my house a few times looking for criminals in the playing
fields opposite. It's a bit annoying when you're trying to watch TV.
I don't mind so much as I'd rather they catch the criminals. Last time
I just switched the TV off and turned my scanner on, scanning between
the police frequency and the local airport frequency.

A while back one of the elderly eresidents walked away from the county
home (at night) which is about a half mile from here. I heard some
noise and went out side to see a hellicopter just on the other side
of the road.

I beat a hasty path to the county cruiser on the corner (bout a 100
yards) and suggested they might want to put a spot light on my tower
as it was sticking up a lot higher than the chopper was flying. He
swung the light around and said, "wow" (top antennas are 130 feet).
They left a car there with the spot on the tower while the chopper was
in the area. Had he been 200 to 300 feet west of where he flew
through he'd have ended up IN my living room.

Even at that height I was able to watch TV, or listen to the stereo
without having to turn the volume up. The new ones aren't nearly as
loud as the old ones with the two blade rotors.




How would raising the aerobatic box to a higher
altitude impact its use?

You'd be in the clouds?

Paul


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Hope during this trip I don't do something that is forbidden locally
but not known beyond the local pilots.

I hope you'll report on this very subject, which is a whole lot more
interesting than gallons pumped, hours flown, etc!

I suspect that most airports have their peculiarities. At mine, for
example, there's a nuclear plant to the SSE. The runway is 02/20 with
the prevailing winds favoring a landing from the north. The ocean is
on the east. Most of the locals fly all 45s from the west, using a
midfield or lower crossover if we have to get on the downwind for 20.

(Did I really write that paragraph? It seems very confusing to me,
though the procedure is second nature


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: -- put Cubdriver in subject line!

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

Dave Stadt wrote:

The departure procedures to the east are absurd and
dangerous. Ought to be a law against such nonsense.

There's a complainer that lives off the western end of the runway at 47N.
They
initiated a procedure to try to placate her. Every aircraft was expected
to make a 45
degree left turn about 100 yards from the end of the runway. About a year
after that
went into effect, a Cherokee stalled immediately after turning and
pancaked into a
golf course, killing both occupants. They're back to straight out
departures now.

Does the lady in question know the seriousness of what she initiated?

Paul

"S Green" wrote in message
...

"Paul Sengupta" wrote in message
...
I used to like watching that (IIRC) Pitts...usually from the top
of the car park here in work. Anyway, after the letters, he went
away. Not seen him/her since. Sigh.

Diana Britten, the British aerobatic champion flies from Fairoaks,
the local airport. I've never seen her practising aeros in this area.
I would like to. :-)


I have often seen someone aeros over Cantley Field near Wokingham.

Mmm, could be, though that's quite close for Blackbushe, White Waltham,
etc, there. Wokingham has a fairly low ceiling (airways out of Heathrow)
though (Class A goes to the surface a few miles away over Bracknell).
In which direction in Canfley field? Is that where you live? A friend of
mine with a Bulldog at White Waltham lives in Wokingham. Ex-BA
captain, retired a couple of years ago.

My friends Jonathan and Susan got married at Le Manoir in Oxfordshire,
the world famous chef Raymond Blanc's place. After the dinner we were
out in the garden...we heard the varying noise of a plane doing aeros. We
looked up and there was an Extra, fairly high, but nearly in the overhead,
practising aeros. It was almost as if we'd planned it! (Susan's a pilot and
Jon's been gliding in the past...in fact I took Jon up in my plane yesterday
evening for a quick flight).

Paul