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faa home study graduation certificate



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 10th 05, 01:11 AM
Peter Duniho
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"Falky foo" wrote in message
. ..
All the people I've talked to in San Diego want $70 to sign it, since I
don't have someone I'm taking regular lessons from at this time.


"All the people" quote you exactly the same price? Sounds to me like you
talked to only one person. In any case...

You cannot get your "private license" without hiring an instructor to train
you. If you do hire an instructor to train you, they will have no problem
whatsoever signing you off to take the written exam, even if you study at
home rather than taking ground school. They won't charge you for it either.

If you want an instructor that you have never met before, and whom you'll
never see again, to sign you off to take the written exam, they will need to
verify that you have done the necessary work to qualify to be signed off to
take the written exam. This is NOT a "15 seconds looking at my answers"
process.

As others have pointed out, coursework that you PAY for include
certification for being qualified to take the written. But of course you
PAY for that coursework. There's little difference between that fee and
paying an instructor to do the verification. I don't know why you say that
"all the home study stuff is very coy"...I've found the ones that provide
for a completion certificate allowing you to take the written are right up
front about it, and not coy at all. After all, it's a marketing point for
them.

Why you would want to do all the home study for the written without getting
near an airplane, never mind hiring an instructor to teach you to fly, I
have no idea. But if you insist on doing so, you're going to have to pay
*someone* for the signoff for the written, whether that's through the
purchase of appropriate home study materials or by paying an instructor to
take the time to verify your knowledge before taking the written.

Pete


Ads
  #12  
Old February 10th 05, 01:17 AM
Peter Duniho
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"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
1...
[...] There should not be any charge for this service as it only takes
a few minutes to do, and whether you pass or fail does not reflect back
on us.


Of course it does. There may be no FAA penalty associated with a student's
failure, but when you sign off for the student to take the written, you are
making a claim that you know the student to be properly prepared to take the
written.

Maybe you view it differently, but when I say something, I do my best to
make sure I know what I say to be true.

Are you suggesting that if there were no penalty to you as an instructor for
signing off a student to take the practical exam, that you would have no
problem signing off a student for that exam even if you'd never talked to
the student before and never planned to see him again? That seems bizarre
to me.

Pete


  #13  
Old February 10th 05, 01:43 AM
Falky foo
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Sounds like the opinion of a CFI.. let me address your points:

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

"All the people" quote you exactly the same price? Sounds to me like you
talked to only one person. In any case...


change that to "around $70"

You cannot get your "private license" without hiring an instructor to

train
you.


Yes I understand.

If you do hire an instructor to train you, they will have no problem
whatsoever signing you off to take the written exam, even if you study at
home rather than taking ground school. They won't charge you for it

either.

I want to get the written part done before going up in the plane. I'm not
asking for input on whether this is advisable or not.

If you want an instructor that you have never met before, and whom you'll
never see again, to sign you off to take the written exam, they will need

to
verify that you have done the necessary work to qualify to be signed off

to
take the written exam. This is NOT a "15 seconds looking at my answers"
process.


That's why I'm looking for something automated, or something done by a
company I can send in for. I DON'T want to have to deal with an instructor
at this point, and when I do, I want it to be as little as possible.

As others have pointed out, coursework that you PAY for include
certification for being qualified to take the written. But of course you
PAY for that coursework. There's little difference between that fee and
paying an instructor to do the verification.


Other than having to deal with the instructor, which I don't want to do if I
don't have to.

I don't know why you say that
"all the home study stuff is very coy"...I've found the ones that provide
for a completion certificate allowing you to take the written are right up
front about it, and not coy at all. After all, it's a marketing point for
them.


I'd love it if you could point to specific language. If I were their
marketing guy, I'd be far more explicit, saying something like, "This
certificate satisfies FAA regulation XX.XX(x) and allows you to take the
written exam without other CFI signoff."

Why you would want to do all the home study for the written without

getting
near an airplane, never mind hiring an instructor to teach you to fly, I
have no idea.


Because I don't have time to do the actual flight training now, and because
I already know a great deal about what the FAA tests for, and because I like
to do one thing at a time. Pete, don't fear people who do things
differently than you do!

But if you insist on doing so, you're going to have to pay
*someone* for the signoff for the written, whether that's through the
purchase of appropriate home study materials or by paying an instructor to
take the time to verify your knowledge before taking the written.


That's fine, as long as I don't blow $180 on a home study course and then
have to spend another $70 (or AROUND $70) to have some noodle write his name
on it.

Thanks again!


  #14  
Old February 10th 05, 01:44 AM
Falky foo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Don't mind paying the bucks for the instruction, just mind paying for a
signature.



"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
1...
I believe Gleim still does it, but you have to pay for the software,
which I think is more than the $70.

"BTIZ" wrote in
news:[email protected]:

Gliems home study course will print the certificate on your computer
when you answer all the questions correctly, no other contact needed.
Or at least it used to.

BT

"Falky foo" wrote in message
. ..
Hi, thinking of getting my private license. Looking to do ground
school entirely at home, as I already am pretty familiar with most of
the concepts
covered by the FAA written test. FAA Rules say one can take the test
with:

e. A certificate of graduation from an aviation home study
course developed by the aeronautical enterprise providing
the study material. The certificate of graduation must
correspond to the FAA written test for the certificate or rating
sought. The aeronautical enterprise providing the course of
study must also supply a comprehensive written test which can be
scored as evidence that the student has completed the course of
study. When the student satisfactorily completes the written
test, it is sent to the course provider for scoring by an FAA
certificated ground or flight instructor. The instructor
evaluates the test and attests to the student's knowledge of the
subjects presented in the course. Upon satisfactory completion,
a graduation certificate is sent to the student.

I've been looking at Sporty's home study thing. Does anybody know if
they do the CFI signoff/ graduation certificate themselves? That is,
does their
(or anybody's) home study course include a written test which you
either send electronically, or by mail, or (best) is automatically
graded and "signed" by the computer when you complete the test? I'm
trying to avoid giving a CFI $70 so that he can spend 15 seconds
looking at my answers and signing off on the test (sorry CFIs).

I've looked far and wide, and all the home study stuff is very coy
about whether you can use their "certificates of graduation" to
satisfy the above
FAA rule.

Thanks very much!








  #15  
Old February 10th 05, 01:56 AM
Gary Drescher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Falky foo" wrote in message
. ..
All the people I've talked to in San Diego want $70 to sign it, since I
don't have someone I'm taking regular lessons from at this time.


Oh ok, that's different.

One alternative that you might (or might not) want to consider, if you're
comfortable just learning the ground material from a textbook, is to do that
and then take a practice test (to verify that you can pass comfortably), but
defer the real test until you've started flight training. That way you avoid
both the expense of the online ground course and of the $70 signoff, but you
still get all the ground study out of the way in advance--all that remains
is to take the official test, which at that point will be just a formality.

--Gary


  #16  
Old February 10th 05, 04:34 AM
Private
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Falky foo" wrote in message
...
Sounds like the opinion of a CFI.. let me address your points:

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

"All the people" quote you exactly the same price? Sounds to me like you
talked to only one person. In any case...


change that to "around $70"

You cannot get your "private license" without hiring an instructor to

train
you.


Yes I understand.

If you do hire an instructor to train you, they will have no problem
whatsoever signing you off to take the written exam, even if you study at
home rather than taking ground school. They won't charge you for it

either.

I want to get the written part done before going up in the plane. I'm not
asking for input on whether this is advisable or not.

If you want an instructor that you have never met before, and whom you'll
never see again, to sign you off to take the written exam, they will need

to
verify that you have done the necessary work to qualify to be signed off

to
take the written exam. This is NOT a "15 seconds looking at my answers"
process.


That's why I'm looking for something automated, or something done by a
company I can send in for. I DON'T want to have to deal with an
instructor
at this point, and when I do, I want it to be as little as possible.

As others have pointed out, coursework that you PAY for include
certification for being qualified to take the written. But of course you
PAY for that coursework. There's little difference between that fee and
paying an instructor to do the verification.


Other than having to deal with the instructor, which I don't want to do if
I
don't have to.

I don't know why you say that
"all the home study stuff is very coy"...I've found the ones that provide
for a completion certificate allowing you to take the written are right
up
front about it, and not coy at all. After all, it's a marketing point
for
them.


I'd love it if you could point to specific language. If I were their
marketing guy, I'd be far more explicit, saying something like, "This
certificate satisfies FAA regulation XX.XX(x) and allows you to take the
written exam without other CFI signoff."

Why you would want to do all the home study for the written without

getting
near an airplane, never mind hiring an instructor to teach you to fly, I
have no idea.


Because I don't have time to do the actual flight training now, and
because
I already know a great deal about what the FAA tests for, and because I
like
to do one thing at a time. Pete, don't fear people who do things
differently than you do!





I hope that you have researched the regulations for the validity period of
the written exam. IIRC the flight test and ALL flight requirements and
paperwork must be completed within two years of the written exam date.

While there is nothing wrong with self study, it is more common to do the
written a few months before the flight test so that the exam prep work will
also be recent and will also prepare you for the oral part of the flight
test.

There are many sources of practice exam materials and they can often be
purchased used from someone who has just completed their training. I bet if
you asked nicely someone on this group could email sample exams or sell you
their used material and may even have other student supplies like denault
computers and practice maps and books.





But if you insist on doing so, you're going to have to pay
*someone* for the signoff for the written, whether that's through the
purchase of appropriate home study materials or by paying an instructor
to
take the time to verify your knowledge before taking the written.


That's fine, as long as I don't blow $180 on a home study course and then
have to spend another $70 (or AROUND $70) to have some noodle write his
name
on it.

Thanks again!




  #17  
Old February 10th 05, 04:39 AM
Andrew Sarangan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You are correct. It doesn't make sense. Now you have made me think about
this.

My reasoning was based on my distrust of the written exams. Most
questions are not based on reality. Who cares if you can calculate fuel
burn down to the last 1/10th of a gallon? I tell my students to get the
written test behind them quickly so that they can start to learn the
useful stuff. Also, the CFI written tests do not require endorsements.
But the CFI test probably carries the most potential damage. An ill-
informed CFI can cause more damage than an ill-informed private pilot.

However, your point is valid, and I will reconsider my statement.



"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
1...
[...] There should not be any charge for this service as it only
takes a few minutes to do, and whether you pass or fail does not
reflect back on us.


Of course it does. There may be no FAA penalty associated with a
student's failure, but when you sign off for the student to take the
written, you are making a claim that you know the student to be
properly prepared to take the written.

Maybe you view it differently, but when I say something, I do my best
to make sure I know what I say to be true.

Are you suggesting that if there were no penalty to you as an
instructor for signing off a student to take the practical exam, that
you would have no problem signing off a student for that exam even if
you'd never talked to the student before and never planned to see him
again? That seems bizarre to me.

Pete




  #18  
Old February 10th 05, 07:30 AM
Peter Duniho
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Falky foo" wrote in message
...
I don't know why you say that
"all the home study stuff is very coy"...I've found the ones that provide
for a completion certificate allowing you to take the written are right
up
front about it, and not coy at all. After all, it's a marketing point
for
them.


I'd love it if you could point to specific language. If I were their
marketing guy, I'd be far more explicit, saying something like, "This
certificate satisfies FAA regulation XX.XX(x) and allows you to take the
written exam without other CFI signoff."


Honestly, I'm not sure someone with so little motivation as to be able to
find this sort information on your own really belongs in the cockpit. As I
said, it's a marketing point and usually prominently stated. For example,
from the King School's web page for their Private Pilot course:

"Your Private Pilot Exam DVD Course includes:
1.. Every single FAA question, with thorough step-by-step explanations
2.. 3 Practice Exams (to help boost your confidence before the test)
3.. FAR/AIM CD-ROM
4.. King Coursebook with detailed notes
5.. Sign-off for your FAA Exam"
Pay particular mind to #5. Isn't that explicit enough for you?

Of course, keep in mind the 24-month limit for the exam. That is, once you
pass the exam, you have 24 months only before you take the practical exam
(oral and flight).

Your reluctance to get involved with an actual flight instructor is pretty
bizarre, IMHO. And whether you asked for advice on that issue or not, it's
pretty silly to go off rushing into the written exam before you've done any
flight training at all.

Pete


  #19  
Old February 10th 05, 07:55 AM
Peter Duniho
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
1...
You are correct. It doesn't make sense. Now you have made me think about
this.

My reasoning was based on my distrust of the written exams.


Well-founded distrust, I completely agree.

Most
questions are not based on reality. Who cares if you can calculate fuel
burn down to the last 1/10th of a gallon?


Well, as impractical as doing so in real life is, being able to do so shows
a certain amount of "headroom" in being able to make the practical sorts of
calculations. I think of it as sort of providing an extra margin of
performance.

Also, while I seriously doubt this was a goal of the FAA, being forced to
plan things to the smallest detail may prompt at least some pilots to
consider what degree of detail is really necessary. I consider it a happy
serendipitous fallout of a somewhat silly FAA requirement.

I tell my students to get the
written test behind them quickly so that they can start to learn the
useful stuff.


But students who are actively training with you, no doubt, and who are
unlikely to miss the 24-month deadline.

Also, the CFI written tests do not require endorsements.
But the CFI test probably carries the most potential damage. An ill-
informed CFI can cause more damage than an ill-informed private pilot.


But with or without an endorsement, the CFI applicant still needs to pass
the test. An endorsement doesn't affect the applicant's performance on the
test at all.

Which is to say that I agree that the requirement for an endorsement seems a
little dumb. As you suggest, the requirement may be a legacy of when
students weren't paying for the test. Today, if a student wants to pay the
exorbitant fee for a test, even when they aren't prepared to pass it, why
not let them? Who would it hurt?

I just think that regardless of how silly one thinks a requirement is, one
ought to still consider their integrity when making endorsements. If one is
willing to make a written statement that a student is prepared for a test,
one ought to actually verify that the statement is true. I'm happy to hear
you agree (or are at least willing to consider agreeing ).

Pete


  #20  
Old February 10th 05, 11:38 PM
Andrew
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Peter Duniho wrote:


Also, the CFI written tests do not require endorsements.
But the CFI test probably carries the most potential damage. An

ill-
informed CFI can cause more damage than an ill-informed private

pilot.

But with or without an endorsement, the CFI applicant still needs to

pass
the test. An endorsement doesn't affect the applicant's performance

on the
test at all.






Which is to say that I agree that the requirement for an endorsement

seems a
little dumb. As you suggest, the requirement may be a legacy of when


students weren't paying for the test. Today, if a student wants to

pay the
exorbitant fee for a test, even when they aren't prepared to pass it,

why
not let them? Who would it hurt?

I just think that regardless of how silly one thinks a requirement

is, one
ought to still consider their integrity when making endorsements. If

one is
willing to make a written statement that a student is prepared for a

test,
one ought to actually verify that the statement is true. I'm happy

to hear
you agree (or are at least willing to consider agreeing ).

Pete



I totally agree with you on the last statement, and I am going to
reverse my position from before. I also agree that it is not a good
practice to sign off someone just because it doesn't reflect on the
CFI's record. In fact, after some thought, I think it may even be a
good idea to hold the CFI responsible for the students pass/fail on the
written. The written exam, like the practical exam, is just a small
sampling of the candidate's knowledge. The exams are not comprehensive
evaluations of the student. As an educator, I should have known this.
So it is quite possible for someone to slip through the cracks without
the proper knowledge. The only way to reduce such slips is have several
exams. Then the likelihood of someone slipping through the system will
be minimized. If the endorsement process is treated like an exam (like
it is done for the practical test), then there will be fewer slips. As
in everything, this will impose on the good students, who will have yet
another hoop to jump through.

 




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