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Old July 25th 03, 08:02 PM
Kevin Horton
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In article
FRANK wrote:

Since there seems to be a thought that we all need an AOA indicator, I have
missed something. Are there planes that give no indication of an impending
stall? Isn't a large part of flight training concentrated on recognizing
that impending stall? The people with whom I have flown who regularly fly
the ragged edge of the bottom end of the airspeed ignore the stall warning
horn and just fly the plane. That isn't flying by the seat of one's pants,
its understanding the what the normally present indicators are telling you.
I will have to agree that no one survives all those years crop dusting by
looking at some kind of gauge. It is flying skill and knowledge. On a much
smaller scale it's like getting to the point as a student when you realize
you are flying approach and discovering you're not having to watch the
airspeed indicator gauge...and you're squeaking it on.

Bruce A. Frank

Type certificated aircraft are required to have some sort of stall
warning that occurs far enough before the stall so the pilot can
respond to the stall warning and avoid the stall (the regs don't use
exactly these words, but that is the intent). Ideally, the stall
warning would be aerodynamic buffet, but some aircraft either don't
have enough buffet, or it occurs too close to the stall, so system is
added to provide stall warning.

The original version of FAR 23 allowed the stall warning to be some
visual device in the cockpit, but FAR 23 amendment 7 in 1969 added
words "However, a visual stall warning device that requires the
attention of the crew within the cockpit is not acceptable by itself. "

I can't find an online copy of CAR 3, which predated FAR 23, and is the
design standard that many popular light aircraft were held to. I
assume it was similar to the first edition of FAR 23.

So, for type certificated aircraft, it is a mixed bag - a visual stall
warning device would be acceptable from a regulatory point of view on
some models, but not others, depending on when it was designed. From a
safety point of view, it is crazy to have a stall warning that is only
effective if you are looking at it. If you have enough situational
awareness to be actively watching the stall warning indicator, you are
probably not in danger of stalling. The dangerous stalls are the ones
that bite you when your head is buried up your a** as you are not
paying attention to the airspeed, or how hard you are pulling at low

If I was crop dusting, I would sure want an aircraft that "talked" to
you aerodynamically as you approached the stall. Two of the funnest
aircraft I've ever flown had nice progressively increasing buffet as
you approached the stall. You could manoeuvre hard just by feel and
really work the wing.

Homebuilts don't have to meet any stall warning requirements. For
example, the RVs that I have flown have very little aerodynamic stall
warning. Yes, there is a small amount of buffet a couple of mph before
the stall, and it can be noticed if you are looking for it. But if you
were distracted you could easily miss it and inadvertently stall the
aircraft, if you abused it bad enough.

Kevin Horton - RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
Old July 26th 03, 03:17 AM
external usenet poster
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AOA - Piece of yarn on a stick?

Dan D.

"Barnyard BOb --" wrote in message ...

Bob, Bob, Bob,

You can make a AOA indicator for $50 and a little bit of time to machine
a dual purpose pitot - AOA pylon for the end of your wing.

I do agree that many gauges on the dashes of many kitbuilts are
worth a great deal less than the asking price, but a stall warning
system is worth its weight in gold!!! Just ask the gentleman that
"made it" to Oshkosh in a Glasair got stuck behind a cub on final,
did "s" turns until he fell out of the sky 400 ft short of the runway.

Another Information System Engineer, but without a gold lined wallet.
Bart D. Hull

Just admit you know not how to fly small GA aircraft.
You sound like one of the typical dumb**** cable infomercials.

Gimmee a break and quit insulting my meager intelligence.
Glasairs and Cubs will never mix and starring at a homebrew
AOA on a wingtip instead of where one is going while attempting
to navigate the world's busiest airport at rush hour is...
extremely poor form in my 50 year old book of competent piloting.

You can X, Y, Z or S 'til hell freezes over, but ....
Not even a $5000 AOA indicator can substitute for good judgment
and save your dumb ass when you should be on final at 100 mph
instead of attempting to match wits with a 40 mph Cub....
if what you say has even a grain of truth in it.

I've successfully flown thousands of hours on the ragged edge
of stall crop dusting and I attribute that more to being competent
at stall recognition than some $50 huckster claim of a life saving
device for dummies.

I've been hearing and reading about cheapy AOA indicators
for the better part of 50 years. If they were worth a hoot, you or
somebody would be selling them for $100 and getting rich....
or getting your ass sued into oblivion.

Have you installed the $50 AOA on your, yet to fly, Tango?
BE HONEST or you will crash and burn behind a Piper Cub.

What is it with you Information System Engineers that make
you brag about your credentials in a pilot oriented community?
From what I have seen in the last 24 hours....
It's hardly an asset when garbage in = garbage out.

Barnyard BOb - please don't 'ax' me to talk to dead men

Old July 27th 03, 12:23 PM
Barnyard BOb --
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That's all I was saying. Nothing more. I did not suggest that we *all*
need one, just that *he* needs one.

And Bob, if he can afford variable-geometry wings he can damned well
afford an AOA. He'll need it. One thing my experience in IS has taught
me is that the system that requires the least amount of human discipline
and/or interpretation is the one that will work best when operated by
humans. We're inconsistent, forgetful, inattentive things and it's best
to simplify things for the human as much as possible. Especially when
lives are on the line.



I stand corrected.

Somehow, I missed the variable-geometry gobbledy gook.
By all means, install a fool proof toilet seat while your at it,
with automatic arse wiper...
being us humans are sooooo absent minded and forgetful.

Barnyard BOb -- dining on salted crow while LM_A_O


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