Should a W&B list gross weight?

Some work was done on an airplane. The new W&B is of the "removed/added"
sort and computes a new empty weight and moment arm. But the document
doesn't state the gross weight.

The changes were all avionics; no airframe or power plant work was done. So
I'd expect the gross weight to remain unchanged from the prior W&B.

But does the new W&B need to state the gross weight, even if it is
unchanged? If not, do we then need both documents to cover the legalities
of documentation in the airplane?

Or did the person that wrote the new W&B err?

- Andrew

You need to list the new empty weight; gross weight shouldn't change without
an STC.

Seth

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Some work was done on an airplane. The new W&B is of the "removed/added"
sort and computes a new empty weight and moment arm. But the document
doesn't state the gross weight.

The changes were all avionics; no airframe or power plant work was done.
So
I'd expect the gross weight to remain unchanged from the prior W&B.

But does the new W&B need to state the gross weight, even if it is
unchanged? If not, do we then need both documents to cover the legalities
of documentation in the airplane?

Or did the person that wrote the new W&B err?

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon wrote:
Some work was done on an airplane. The new W&B is of the "removed/added"
sort and computes a new empty weight and moment arm. But the document
doesn't state the gross weight.

The changes were all avionics; no airframe or power plant work was done. So
I'd expect the gross weight to remain unchanged from the prior W&B.

But does the new W&B need to state the gross weight, even if it is
unchanged? If not, do we then need both documents to cover the legalities
of documentation in the airplane?

I have never seen a W+B that didn't list the gross weight.

Newps wrote:

I have never seen a W+B that didn't list the gross weight.

Mine doesn't, not even the original factory one did.

I have never seen a W+B that didn't list the gross weight.

If you are talking Max Gross Weight, transport category aircraft don't
list it with the last weigh job or re-calculation. It is however
listed elsewhere in the Type Certificate Data Sheet, Weight and
Balance Manual and the Limitation section of the AFM.

Long and short of it is there is no requirement to have that
limitation listed with the new weight and balance calculations.

Newps wrote:

I have never seen a W+B that didn't list the gross weight.

IIRC, the one for my Maule didn't. It was listed elsewhere in the owner's manual.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

Andrew Gideon wrote:
Some work was done on an airplane. The new W&B is of the "removed/added"
sort and computes a new empty weight and moment arm. But the document
doesn't state the gross weight.

Mine doesn't. The gross weight and the CG envelope are listed in the
operating limitations book. The Type Certificate requires the
equipment list AND the operating limitations book.

There's no specific requirement for W&B paperwork in the regs despite
what your flight instructor told you.

Ron Natalie wrote:

There's no specific requirement for W&B paperwork in the regs despite
what your flight instructor told you.

I have found 23.1583, which states that maximum weight and center of gravity
limits are part of the aircraft manual, and 23.1519 which states that
weight and CG limits are a part of operating limitations.

But what's the documentation requirement for equipment changes which alter
one or more of these factors? 23.21 discusses this for type certification,
but not for upgrades.

I've found nothing which discusses that. I'd have expected something in
part 43, but I'm not seeing it.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon wrote:


I have found 23.1583, which states that maximum weight and center of gravity
limits are part of the aircraft manual, and 23.1519 which states that
weight and CG limits are a part of operating limitations.

Part 23 has no meaning for my aircraft. As I said, the empty
weight/momemt is in an entirely different document than where the CG
envelope is defined in my plane and many others I have flown.


But what's the documentation requirement for equipment changes which alter
one or more of these factors? 23.21 discusses this for type certification,
but not for upgrades.

Well since the max weight or CG doesn't change (unless you're doing a
major modfication), just the empty weight, the equipment list with a ne
emtpy weight/moment would seem not to need to duplicate that information.

Ron Natalie wrote:

Well since the max weight or CG doesn't change (unless you're doing a
major modfication), just the empty weight, the equipment list with a ne
emtpy weight/moment would seem not to need to duplicate that information.

That's the conclusion to which I've been coming. I'd be more comfortable,
though, if I found something (ie. in part 43) which discussed what to do
when the maximum gross weight is altered. Since two of our club aircraft
have had such upgrades, it would just be more clear to me if I could see
the distinction drawn between modifications that do and do not alter gross
weight.

I'd also have liked to see some mechanism whereby a line was drawn for those
modifications which might or might not impact gross weight. Yes, it should
be obvious. But that uses common sense, and I fear the outcome should I
make the mistake of applying common sense to legal (esp. FAA {8^) matters.

- Andrew