Cloud Flying

Chris,

Specifically, where does the clearance begin, and end. ATC is going to
want a starting point and an exit point. Going back to my earlier note,
how do you get up and down? The cloud layer closes in below you while
your going x country IFR in a pure glider, how do you legally get down.
You are coming down somewhere, I don't have an argument there, but ATC
has a big manual called the TERPS Manual that they have to operate by.
It is their ball and chain that they operate by, and if they've issued
us a clearance, they have some pretty tight parameters that they want
us to fly by in their airspace.

Let's say that your here at my club in Texas. My specific question here
would be how would you file the route portion. Let's say you use a fix
near TSA to start. Now, how do I file the altitude? A block is probably
the best way, as you mentioned, but how do you guarantee your local
controllers that your going to remain in that block, especially if the
bottom fills in below you while your cruising. This is why I'm a bit
suspect that there are some loose ends to flying gliders IFR, from a
totally legal standpoint.

I beg to differ that it is nothing like flying an airplane IFR.

Thanks for the input



Fox Two wrote:
snoop wrote:
Good find. That's what I saw, in the same vein, with 61.57, how to stay
current, but the requirements for an instrument rating still leave us
hanging out there, as mentioned earlier. Now we need the operational or
part 91 end of it. How to do it. Hang in there guys, Shawn, c'mon buddy
we need you to help here.


Snoop-

What are you talking about?! Ask a specific question! Flying a glider
under IFR is EXACTLY THE SAME as flying an airplane under IFR. That is
why an instrument rating in airplanes is required to fly a glider under
IFR. Here's how you do it:

1. File the flight plan.
2. Receive the ATC clearance.
3. Fly the glider!

If your flight is intended to be local in nature, you request a block
clearance both laterally and vertically, and remain within your
clearance limits. If you are flying cross country, you receive a route
clearance with authorization to deviate up to x miles left and right of
course within a block altitude limit.

If you already have your instument-airplane rating, and a few hundered
hours of instrument experinece, you should already know all of this.
If you don't, then you shouldn't consider flying a glider IFR.

Chris Fleming, F2

Snoop,

That's more like it: specific questions. It appears to me that you are
making this way too difficult. Here we go:

snoop wrote:

Chris,

Specifically, where does the clearance begin, and end. ATC is going to
want a starting point and an exit point.

What is your intended task? If you're going from A to B and landing at
B, then file from A to B. Most glider cross-countries start and end at
the same place, so file from A to A via B and C. You can amend your
clearance at any time. If you don't think you can make B, just tell
ATC and request clearance to C, or back to A or to a new destination D.
In short, just tell them what you want to do!

Going back to my earlier note,
how do you get up and down? The cloud layer closes in below you while
your going x country IFR in a pure glider, how do you legally get down.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Your initial clearance is
going to have an altitude block. Throughout your flight, you will
amend this clearance both up and down. I've had clearances which had
8,000 foot deep altitude blocks!

You are coming down somewhere, I don't have an argument there, but ATC
has a big manual called the TERPS Manual that they have to operate by.
It is their ball and chain that they operate by, and if they've issued
us a clearance, they have some pretty tight parameters that they want
us to fly by in their airspace.

TERPS means Terminal Instrument Procedures. Do you seriously intend to
fly an ILS in a glider? I didn't think so. Likewise, DP's STAR's and
all other IAP's are irrelevant to IFR gliders. Gliders need to depart
and arrive under VFR. TERPS doesn't apply.

Let's say that your here at my club in Texas. My specific question here
would be how would you file the route portion. Let's say you use a fix
near TSA to start. Now, how do I file the altitude? A block is probably
the best way, as you mentioned, but how do you guarantee your local
controllers that your going to remain in that block, especially if the
bottom fills in below you while your cruising. This is why I'm a bit
suspect that there are some loose ends to flying gliders IFR, from a
totally legal standpoint.

As for filing your route, just file direct. For altitude, file for
your estimated max altitude. In the remarks section, write: Glider
flight. Will require course deviations and block altitudes from ATC.

Yes, you must remain within the parameters of the clearance. So, you
shouldn't accept a clearance that you can't comply with. If you're at
5,170 feet and scratching in weak lift, do not accept an altitude
clearance that requires you to remain above 5,000 feet! Likewise, if
you've encountered unexpected sink, advise ATC that you will need a new
altitude clearance. It all comes down to COMMUNICATION!


I beg to differ that it is nothing like flying an airplane IFR.

90% of flying an airplane IFR includes VMC departures and arrivals,
with only a few moments in IMC conditions. Just like a glider.


Thanks for the input


You're welcome. Now let me add this: to safely fly a glider in IFR
conditions, the pilot must be able to walk and chew gum at the same
time. Flying a glider effectively on a cross-country is challenging.
Flying single-pilot IFR is challenging. Flying a glider on a
single-pilot IFR cross-country is extremely challenging. Prerequisites
should include many recent hours in both glider cross-countries and IFR
procedures.

At the risk of speaking for others, glider pilots that fly IFR have
huge personal weather minimums. They won't consider flying IFR unless
they are certain that they will be able to cancel IFR and continue to
their destination under VFR with a significant safety margin. Most
pilots will file IFR with no intention of ever flying into a cloud.
Instead, they want to be able to fly closer to the cloud than the
minimum distances required for VFR. Most IFR cross-countries are in
mountain waves, and the risk of going from clear and a million to
suddenly being engulfed in a thick cloud is real. Being on an IFR
flight plan is a safety measure.

Finally, nothing can substitute for good judgment. IFR in gliders can
be a valuable tool, but it can easily kill you. Don't even think of
doing it unless you are certain that there is no risk from doing it.
Actually, your criteria should be the opposite: do it only if you think
it is the safer option.

Chris Fleming, F2
ATP B-767, CFI-G

wrote:

No matter what you fly in general aviation accessible to an average
pilot is difficult to fly in a cloud(s).

Single-pilot IFR in IMC is challenging in any aircraft--some more than
others. On the other hand, nobody here has yet advocated six legs ending
with circling approaches at night in snowstorms as an example of the
kind of "cloud flying" that gliders might do.


And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.

Then you've flown both? I've enjoyed the similarities almost as much as
the differences, but maybe that's just me. The only relevant comparison
I would suggest here is that each requires the pilot to be respectful of
its limitations.


...I pay very close attention to the foehn gap. And if you get
trap on top you have very unpleasant descent through a cloud(s)....
I would not take any chances flying here, "out west" with flight into
IMC.

Excellent. Then we're in full agreement. Why ascribe any less caution to
a properly trained and equipped glider pilot flying legally in clouds in
a different environment?


...as a power, glider, instructor, etc. pilot, if my
knowledge is limited I would like to update that.

That's what we're all here for, Jacek. Hopefully we can clarify what is,
and is not, legal. I suspect that the possible may already be fairly
well outlined, but I await the input from more experienced guiders of
gliders in cloud.



Jack

snoop wrote:

Sorry Jack but your dead wrong. There are flesh and bone reasons why we
should teach people why we don't penetrate clouds, in US
gliders/airspace.

Let's deal with what I wrote:

"It can be done safely, under limited circumstances, and our effort
ought to be to show people how to do it safely and legally, not to
scare them away."

When you tell folks, "Don't do it," and just walk away, you've lost your
best chance to influence their behavior in the long run. As a matter of
fact, I suspect you and I would arrive at the same point after beating
around this bush for awhile. I won't get "called in by the FAA for IFR
[sic] glider flying here in the USA," because I won't be doing any.


With regard to wave flying, yes we get a window, and stay out of the
clouds and ahead of the weather. I've flown the wave window at Marfa,
where we had a window, a chunk of airspace, but still not a clearance
into IFR [sic] conditions. The topic here is getting a clearance and going
into solid IFR [sic].

The topic can be anything you want it to be, Snoop, but the thread is
titled "Cloud Flying".


Your statement " it can be done safely under limited circumstances"
won't hold up when your dancin' for the FAA.

"It can be done safely under limited circumstances" is a statement for a
NG discussion on the topic of "Cloud Flying". Legality is a different
question and one on which it is clear you are confidant you know the
answer. The FAA might even agree with you, but if they didn't they'd
never tell anyone -- you know how they are. So maybe you can point out
to us those FAR's that actually prohibit gliders from flying in clouds
in the USA under any circumstances. And then we can watch advocates from
the other side of the issue show us where their FAR's can beat up your
FAR's.

This ought to be fun....


Jack

Chris,

I don't want to make it difficult. What I do want is for those of us,
who want to protect our sport of soaring from, the intense scrutiny of
the public eye, and the heavy hand of big brother, to think through
this difficult subject. As seen in this thread there is a lot to this
thing we call IFR flying. I fly IFR everyday at work, all around the
world. Its wonderful, and like flying gliders, gives a lot of
satisfaction to the pilot side of the brain.

Your input has been very helpful, but to me there are still a lot of
loose ends. When I flew cargo in twin cessnas, back in the late
seventies, we filed our own flight plans with the FSS desk at DPA,
under the watchful eye of Theo Moore, the king of the local FSDO. Theo
would collect our flight plans and go over each box on that little
flight plan card to see that we met the letter of the law. For instance
if it was a day when it was lifr, he would check the validity of our
alternate, our fuel. The guy was not bashful about doing this while
standing behind the counter as we filled them in. All our pilots
received a first hand lesson in what goes in each of those little
boxes, and why. Lessons that still apply today whether filing into MKE,
or VIDP.

My point here is I'm still fuzzy on the official guys (FSS, ATC)
accepting something as simple as the flight plan for our glider as you
described. From an operational viewpoint, it's clear as a bell to me,
it's simple. I've received untold numbers of pop up clearances in the
past.

There are still MEAs, MOCAs, MVAs, things, that the contollers have to
govern who they turn loose in the clouds. How does the local guy work
around these. Again it appears quite simple from the operational end,
but.......

Then, there is local knowledge, which I'm thinking goes a long way
with glider IFR. That is what we need clarification of. And use
conservative common sense. But that term is not in the FAAs handbook.

As you well know most of these FAA regs have blood written on them. I
would have to have the controller himself tell me the TERPs are out the
window when it comes to my glider flying IFR.

What I'm hoping Shawn will do before publishing anything about IFR
glider flying is to take all of our points, sit down with his local
FSS, ATC guys, the guys who give him his clearance, and hash it out.
Maybe get Shawn, or anyone else who knows how to, no, wait, there are a
lot of people who think they know how it's done, let's get those who do
file, and fly their glider IFR, to get their local ATC/FSS people to
present a paper, or talk to the local groups, about the procedures and
responsibilities of flying our gliders IFR.

With all due respect to Shawn and his paper, these things, he has
probably done!

Your exactly right about doing it as a "safe option". We might have to
dance with the feds, after the help ATC gives us, to get us back to
VFR conditions, but we sure don't want a 340 knot mustard colored
suppositorie up the backside.

snoop



Fox Two wrote:
Snoop,

That's more like it: specific questions. It appears to me that you are
making this way too difficult. Here we go:

snoop wrote:

Chris,

Specifically, where does the clearance begin, and end. ATC is going to
want a starting point and an exit point.

What is your intended task? If you're going from A to B and landing at
B, then file from A to B. Most glider cross-countries start and end at
the same place, so file from A to A via B and C. You can amend your
clearance at any time. If you don't think you can make B, just tell
ATC and request clearance to C, or back to A or to a new destination D.
In short, just tell them what you want to do!

Going back to my earlier note,
how do you get up and down? The cloud layer closes in below you while
your going x country IFR in a pure glider, how do you legally get down.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Your initial clearance is
going to have an altitude block. Throughout your flight, you will
amend this clearance both up and down. I've had clearances which had
8,000 foot deep altitude blocks!

You are coming down somewhere, I don't have an argument there, but ATC
has a big manual called the TERPS Manual that they have to operate by.
It is their ball and chain that they operate by, and if they've issued
us a clearance, they have some pretty tight parameters that they want
us to fly by in their airspace.

TERPS means Terminal Instrument Procedures. Do you seriously intend to
fly an ILS in a glider? I didn't think so. Likewise, DP's STAR's and
all other IAP's are irrelevant to IFR gliders. Gliders need to depart
and arrive under VFR. TERPS doesn't apply.

Let's say that your here at my club in Texas. My specific question here
would be how would you file the route portion. Let's say you use a fix
near TSA to start. Now, how do I file the altitude? A block is probably
the best way, as you mentioned, but how do you guarantee your local
controllers that your going to remain in that block, especially if the
bottom fills in below you while your cruising. This is why I'm a bit
suspect that there are some loose ends to flying gliders IFR, from a
totally legal standpoint.

As for filing your route, just file direct. For altitude, file for
your estimated max altitude. In the remarks section, write: Glider
flight. Will require course deviations and block altitudes from ATC.

Yes, you must remain within the parameters of the clearance. So, you
shouldn't accept a clearance that you can't comply with. If you're at
5,170 feet and scratching in weak lift, do not accept an altitude
clearance that requires you to remain above 5,000 feet! Likewise, if
you've encountered unexpected sink, advise ATC that you will need a new
altitude clearance. It all comes down to COMMUNICATION!


I beg to differ that it is nothing like flying an airplane IFR.

90% of flying an airplane IFR includes VMC departures and arrivals,
with only a few moments in IMC conditions. Just like a glider.


Thanks for the input


You're welcome. Now let me add this: to safely fly a glider in IFR
conditions, the pilot must be able to walk and chew gum at the same
time. Flying a glider effectively on a cross-country is challenging.
Flying single-pilot IFR is challenging. Flying a glider on a
single-pilot IFR cross-country is extremely challenging. Prerequisites
should include many recent hours in both glider cross-countries and IFR
procedures.

At the risk of speaking for others, glider pilots that fly IFR have
huge personal weather minimums. They won't consider flying IFR unless
they are certain that they will be able to cancel IFR and continue to
their destination under VFR with a significant safety margin. Most
pilots will file IFR with no intention of ever flying into a cloud.
Instead, they want to be able to fly closer to the cloud than the
minimum distances required for VFR. Most IFR cross-countries are in
mountain waves, and the risk of going from clear and a million to
suddenly being engulfed in a thick cloud is real. Being on an IFR
flight plan is a safety measure.

Finally, nothing can substitute for good judgment. IFR in gliders can
be a valuable tool, but it can easily kill you. Don't even think of
doing it unless you are certain that there is no risk from doing it.
Actually, your criteria should be the opposite: do it only if you think
it is the safer option.

Chris Fleming, F2
ATP B-767, CFI-G

I've done a bit of cloud flying in your neck of the woods in single engine
airplanes but this story could apply to gliders as well.

I had departed White Sands Regional under a IFR flight plan to Houston
Hobby. Favorable tailwinds were available above 17,000 and there was a
towering CU sited just at Pinion VOR suggesting that those tailwinds might
be available to me. The WX forecast clearly stated that there was strong
capping at 400MB so I didn't expect towering CU's to develop into
thunderstorms. I contacted Albuquerque Center with this request, "9238J
requests climb to FL180 while holding at Pinion VOR".

ABQ center approved the request so I put on oxygen and centered the lift
below the 12,000' cloud base in a standard rate turn and started the climb.
Even a slow turn of 2 minutes per 360 can affect the inner ear if continued
long enough so I was careful to set trim and power to make the airplane as
stable as possible. (Note to instrument rated pilots: holding doesn't
actually require that you fly a "racetrack" pattern as long as you stay
within your clearance limits.)

The rate of climb increased to 1500 FPM at cloud base and the little Piper
soared to the flight levels allowing me to cruise to east Texas with a 50
knot tailwind. I got a cruise clearance FL180 to FL 240 so I could do a
little porpoise flying. There were many other towering CU's along the route
so I did a few "diversions for weather" to traverse them. I kept a constant
watch on weather advisories lest thunderstorms develop.

I figure that utilizing lift saved about 20 gallons of avgas on that flight.
Since the flight was conducted far above the operating ceiling of the Piper,
I see no reason that a glider couldn't have made the same flight.

While IFR/IMC flight in glider is both possible and legal with the right
equipment and training, it must be said that the skillset required is quite
large and the task is very demanding. Many very experienced instrument
pilots regard single pilot IFR in airplanes inadvisable due to the cockpit
workload. Adding the mind share needed to soar to that workload makes for a
formidable task.

I'm interested in glider IFR flight as much as any one. However, I think I
would keep it to IFR flight under VMC in low traffic areas. For example,
access to airspace above FL180 to permit a climb to the very high CU bases
that sometimes develop in the western US.


Bill Daniels

"Fox Two" wrote in message
ps.com...
Jacek,

I'm anxiously awaiting the article as well! Until it is, though, here
are some tasty morsels:

There aren't any FAR's that clearly say: "To fly a glider under IFR,
you must..." But there are some regs that we can correlate together to
find that, yes, flying a glider under IFR is completely legal. Such
as:

There is no instrument rating available for gliders, as is specified by
CFAR § 61.5(b)(8):

§ 61.5 Certificates and ratings issued under this part.
b) The following ratings are placed on a pilot certificate (other than
student pilot) when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the
training and certification requirements for the rating sought:
(8) Instrument ratings (on private and commercial pilot certificates
only)-
(i) Instrument-Airplane.
(ii) Instrument-Helicopter.
(iii) Instrument-Powered-lift.


But, CFAR § 61.3(e)(3) states that a pilot can get certified to fly a
glider under IFR:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating.


And, CFAR § 61.57(c)(2) specifies the recent pilot experience needed
to act as PIC in a glider under IFR:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this
section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather
conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the
preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions-

(i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1 1/2 hours
may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are to be
carried; or
(ii) 3 hours of instrument time in flight in a glider if a passenger is
to be carried.


Furthermore, CFAR § 61.57(d)(1)(iii) specifies how a glider pilot can
get an instrument competency check:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(d) Instrument proficiency check. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, a person who does not meet the instrument experience
requirements of paragraph (c) of this section within the prescribed
time, or within 6 calendar months after the prescribed time, may not
serve as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than
the minimums prescribed for VFR until that person passes an instrument
proficiency check consisting of a representative number of tasks
required by the instrument rating practical test.
(1) The instrument proficiency check must be-
(iii) For a glider, in a single-engine airplane or a glider.


As far as inspections are concerned, CFAR § 91.413(a) does not exempt
gliders from the 24-month transponder inspection requirement:

§ 91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections.
(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in
91.215(a), 121.345(c), or §135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within
the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested
and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this
chapter.


But the altimeter inspection required by CFAR § 91.411 only applies to
airplanes and helicopters:

§ 91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and
inspections.
(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled
airspace under IFR unless- snip


Equipment requirements to certify your glider for IFR flight are
determined by the manufacturer, and the FAA. If you certify your
glider with an Experimental Airworthiness Certificate, you will need to
comply with your certificate's limitations, just like any other
experimantal aircraft.


As far as the procedure for receiving your IFR clearance is concerned,
you can use any approved method, there aren't any special procedures
for gliders.


And, FYI, I just visited the Schempp-Hirth factory last week where I
saw a beautiful new IFR-certified Ventus with a US registration. Yes,
it's legal.

Chris Fleming, F2





wrote:

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

snoop wrote:
Chris,

I don't want to make it difficult.

Then don't. I was a freight dog, too. I always had to watch
everything with a magnifying glass to make sure I was legal to the
letter. I understand your mindset. But this isn't that.


My point here is I'm still fuzzy on the official guys (FSS, ATC)
accepting something as simple as the flight plan for our glider as you
described. From an operational viewpoint, it's clear as a bell to me,
it's simple. I've received untold numbers of pop up clearances in the
past.


You're right. FSS/ATC may not have ever received an IFR request from a
glider before. But they will likely be excited to do something
different. Once I'm on the frequency, I quickly become a celebrity.
The controllers are asking me questions purely out of curiosity, and I
get funny one liners like:

ATC: American 325 climb and maintain 17,000, expect further climb in 20
miles, you have traffic at 11 o'clock 15 miles at FL190, a glider.

AMR325: What the h*&% is a glider doing up there?!

Me: Descending!

My point is that controllers will work with you if you work with them.
Fitting a glider into their traffic flow can be a burden to them, so
make it less so. Stay away from busy airways. If you need to transit
a busy airway, you may need to wait for a few minutes for ATC to make
room. Then when you're cleared to proceed, cross the airway quickly so
they can use it again. If they need an altitude that you've currently
got blocked, if you can, release it back to them to get the transient
through. Let's all just get along.

There are still MEAs, MOCAs, MVAs, things, that the contollers have to
govern who they turn loose in the clouds. How does the local guy work
around these. Again it appears quite simple from the operational end,
but.......

You're scaring me, snoop! Gliders aren't operating anywhere near the
MEA! Use some judgment here.


As you well know most of these FAA regs have blood written on them. I
would have to have the controller himself tell me the TERPs are out the
window when it comes to my glider flying IFR.

Snoop, TERPS apply to terrain & obstruction clearance during departure
and arrival. We're not doing that. We are thousands of feet off the
ground with cloudbase being thousands of feet above the ground. We're
not flying low IFR; we're flying into an isolated cloud, or flying
along the edge of a lenticular.

let's get those who do
file, and fly their glider IFR, to get their local ATC/FSS people to
present a paper, or talk to the local groups, about the procedures and
responsibilities of flying our gliders IFR.

What do you think we're doing? Perhaps you should take a break from
typing, and reread the entire thread. Your questions have been
answered. IFR in gliders in legal, and people do it every day.

Here's my recommendation to you, snoop. You already know that you
learned more on your first night flying freight out of Chicago than you
did in all of your previous training. So, take an IFR-equipped glider
and fly it IFR in VMC conditions. Take your normal tow, release, and
climb several thousand feet. Then call up ATC, pick up an IFR
clearance to maneuver in the vicinity. Explore the cloudbase, but
don't go into the cloud (for safety). Then cancel IFR, and go home.
Viola! IFR in gliders. Small steps.

Chris Fleming, F2

58y wrote:
wrote:

No matter what you fly in general aviation accessible to an average
pilot is difficult to fly in a cloud(s).

Single-pilot IFR in IMC is challenging in any aircraft--some more than
others. On the other hand, nobody here has yet advocated six legs ending
with circling approaches at night in snowstorms as an example of the
kind of "cloud flying" that gliders might do.


And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.

Then you've flown both? I've enjoyed the similarities almost as much as
the differences, but maybe that's just me. The only relevant comparison
I would suggest here is that each requires the pilot to be respectful of
its limitations.


...I pay very close attention to the foehn gap. And if you get
trap on top you have very unpleasant descent through a cloud(s)....
I would not take any chances flying here, "out west" with flight into
IMC.

Excellent. Then we're in full agreement. Why ascribe any less caution to
a properly trained and equipped glider pilot flying legally in clouds in
a different environment?


...as a power, glider, instructor, etc. pilot, if my
knowledge is limited I would like to update that.

That's what we're all here for, Jacek. Hopefully we can clarify what is,
and is not, legal. I suspect that the possible may already be fairly
well outlined, but I await the input from more experienced guiders of
gliders in cloud.



Jack

Jack,


And don't mix any glider with a 757, there is no comparison. Period.

Then you've flown both? I've enjoyed the similarities almost as much as
the differences, but maybe that's just me. The only relevant comparison
I would suggest here is that each requires the pilot to be respectful of
its limitations.

I have not flown 767....but I have flown 737-300 and -400 in which I am
rated and some .

What worries me in here is the fact that most of opinions expressed in
this posting are greatly simplifying flight in a glider while IMC. I
used to fly my 182, prior to that in 177RG and prior to that in
Cherokee Archer III in solid IFR...well, I was getting out of the plane
exhausted. When I added a simple S-TEC system 30 autopilot with
altitude hold things did improve dramatically. But flying a Cessna or
737 is not the same as flying any glider.I witnessed in 1983 a pilot
getting into Cumulonimbus in a Foka....he came out of the cloud in
pieces. I also happen know the regs. I am also a CFI, -G and -II....can
I fly in IFR conditions in a glider if I must (like if flying the wave
and you get a solid undercast)..I sure can, will I do it for
pleasure...no way.

What I am trying to say is that by giving some ideas to less
experienced pilots will lead to problems of all kinds of magnitude.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

Fox Two wrote:

You're right. FSS/ATC may not have ever received an IFR request from a
glider before. But they will likely be excited to do something
different. Once I'm on the frequency, I quickly become a celebrity.
The controllers are asking me questions purely out of curiosity, and I
get funny one liners like:

ATC: American 325 climb and maintain 17,000, expect further climb in 20
miles, you have traffic at 11 o'clock 15 miles at FL190, a glider.

AMR325: What the h*&% is a glider doing up there?!

Me: Descending!

Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

You're scaring me, snoop! Gliders aren't operating anywhere near the
MEA! Use some judgment here.

Chris, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you mean
that your not doing this near an airway. MEA is an altitude, and
although you may be flying in the Flight Levels, MEA's do run from
down in the thousands to the flight levels.


Snoop, TERPS apply to terrain & obstruction clearance during departure
and arrival. We're not doing that. We are thousands of feet off the
ground with cloudbase being thousands of feet above the ground. We're
not flying low IFR; we're flying into an isolated cloud, or flying
along the edge of a lenticular.

Chris, I will concur that we're not flying low IFR, and we won't be
doing ILS approaches, although I have a glider accident in mind, where
the pilot did try to penetrate some LIFR weather and lost. He lived,
but there was a lot of serious head scratching on his part. The answers
I'm looking for, the fundamental, basic answers we need are, how do I
explain my right to be at 19,000ft with an airliner bearing down on me,
(your scenario), to the fed that meets me on the ramp after the part
121 captain calls this in. Your a professional pilot, what are your
words to all the basic, specific, fundamental, IFR pilot/equipment
questions that your going to face?


What do you think we're doing? Perhaps you should take a break from
typing, and reread the entire thread. Your questions have been
answered. IFR in gliders in legal, and people do it every day.

Chris, I'm not convinced, and saying people do it everyday, well let's
just say I think all USA clubs need to get the donuts out and talk this
one up. I know there are people in clubs who can get this discussion
going.

Here's my recommendation to you, snoop. You already know that you
learned more on your first night flying freight out of Chicago than you
did in all of your previous training. So, take an IFR-equipped glider
and fly it IFR in VMC conditions. Take your normal tow, release, and
climb several thousand feet. Then call up ATC, pick up an IFR
clearance to maneuver in the vicinity. Explore the cloudbase, but
don't go into the cloud (for safety). Then cancel IFR, and go home.
Viola! IFR in gliders. Small steps.


Chris I would love to turn on a t&b and climb into the cloud, but I
want to know that my bases are covered! I want the blessing of the
people who would otherwise fry me, and you! It would be fun just to be
the celebrity kind of pilot, and forge ahead, but I've found in my
world it's been more enjoyable, to find out the facts, do it right, and
let the feds go after the uninformed.

Later, I'm off to the soaring club!

snoop wrote:

Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

Oh, for God's sake, snoop. You're really beginning to annoy me. If
you fly IFR as much as you say you do, you hear that every day.
Aircraft A receives a hold down clearance until he is clear of traffic
B above. American was thousands of feet below me, climbing to an
altitude two thousand feet below me. He saw me on his TCAS. There was
no conflict. ATC was providing separation. Everybody was happy.
Geez.


Chris, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you mean
that your not doing this near an airway. MEA is an altitude, and
although you may be flying in the Flight Levels, MEA's do run from
down in the thousands to the flight levels.

Snoop, we aren't navigating airways! In fact, no navigation equipment
of any kind is required to fly IFR! You need to stop thinking like a
135/121 airplane pilot. You're in a GLIDER. The world of aviation is
a big place, and most pilots are only familiar with their little slice
of it. You need to think outside of your box.

Scroll up to my first message; I've referenced the exact regs that
legalize IFR gliders. It is legal. Period.

My final case-in point: The Goodyear Blimp flies IFR over football
games all of the time. There are tens of thousands of people who are
first-person eye witnesses to this fact as they watch the blimp fly in
and out of the clouds on a snowy day. Millions more see this on TV.
I'm sure that one or two of those fans is a fed. The pilot of the
blimp is getting paid. It's a commercial operation with passengers on
board. But there is no requirement for that pilot to have an
instrument rating of any kind. He might be 1,000 feet AGL, definitely
below the lowest minimum IFR altitude for airplanes. He's IFR without
a rating, and he's perfectly legal. It's a big world out there, snoop.
The rules that apply to airplane 135/121 don't apply to all other
types of flying.

Going out to the glider club? That's sounds good. I'll join you.

Chris Fleming, F2