IFR flight in MSFS '98 questions

OK, your patience please. I'm a very novice simmer.

I'm a pilot trying to clean more rust off her instrument
skills than I have flight time for, since the birth of my
daughter.

I'm trying to use MSFS '98 to fly instrument approaches.

My husband has it configured with CH products yoke and rudder
pedals.

I've been flying a Grumman Cheetah someone else modeled and
I found on the net, since IRL I fly a Grumman Tiger and it's
nice to have the power settings etc etc be fairly close to real
life.

The questions.

1)
Allowing for my sim inexperience, the aerodynamic behavior
appears to suck great big rocks. My hat is off to people who
have hundreds of hours flying instrument approaches in MSFS
to 2/20 standards.

In particular, the pitch axis is way too twitchy. A small
yoke movement will produce 1000 ft rate on the VSI without
large airspeed excursions. IRL, such a rate requires 1)
a larger yoke movement 2) the airspeed will be winding up
(or down) fast.

I thought it might just be the plane, but I tried the stock
C182 and it was the same where IRL "way haul away" is the
yoke MO in a C182. I tape my wrists when I'm flying one at
forward CG.

Are there any settings I'm missing which could "tweak" this?
Any advice about setting the yoke controls to minimize this?

2)
We are missing many local airports from our database (St. Louis
area). The big Class D and B airports are there, but the smaller
GA airports aren't. Is there a freeware or shareware source for
smaller airports for FS '98

3)
I would like to look at my ground track and flight profile to
see how it compares to the track of the instrument approach.
I found the "flight analysis" "course tracking", which is a
start. But is there a way to scan back along the course? Or
to compare it to a specified ground track? Is there a freeware
or shareware product which will do this? (ie allow one to specify
a flight path or procedure to be flown, then compare what was flown)?
Or at least to display ground-based navaids and features (like runway)
at a map height which will allow a decent amount of the track to be
displayed?

I heard mention of a product called "Nav" by Tim Wright, will this
do it? If so what version do we want for FS '98 and where do we
obtain it?

4) Slewing. Often where I want to be is a couple miles from a
ground-based navaid which I can specify easily as a lat-long.
But when I type "y" for slewing, the plane just spins around and
around. Doesn't seem to respond to keyboard controls specified
for slewing in different directions. Anyone else have this problem
and what's the cure?

Basically one thing all these questions might amount to is, should
we upgrade? We skipped FS 2000 because we heard it was such a
system hog. We have a pretty fast, large-memory system now, we
just haven't bothered to upgrade.

Should we invest in a newer sim and if so, which one? I'd
like:
1) realistic flight modeling of a small GA plane, preferably
a 4-place Grumman
2) a reasonably realistic and easy to set instrument panel
(ie I want to be able to set radios while I'm flying, it's
part of what I need to practice, not switch to a different
view which blocks the instruments)
3) decent wind modeling
4) a good database of airports and navaids
5) the ability to analyse my ground track and flight profile
after the flight.

I could care less about "eye candy" scenery or flying fancy planes
right now. But, I don't want to pay hundreds of bucks for an IFR
sim which doesn't model a plane of similar performance and settings
to mine and no chance of a shareware or freeware model, either.
And I gotta admit, the spouse is more into "eye candy" and fancy
planes when he has time to sit down at the sim.

We could upgrade to MSFS 2002 or 2004 but I'd hate to do it if it
would mean more airports and better scenery, but the same flight
model inaccuracies. The VSI (pitch excursion) aspect of the flight
modeling in particular is driving me fairly wild.

Thanks for any help,
Sydney

"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
1)
Are there any settings I'm missing which could "tweak" this?
Any advice about setting the yoke controls to minimize this?

Use the trim, if you aren't already. Also, I think you ought to be able to
adjust the control sensitivity somewhere in the game settings (sorry I'm not
more specific...'98 was a while ago ).

2)
We are missing many local airports from our database (St. Louis
area). The big Class D and B airports are there, but the smaller
GA airports aren't. Is there a freeware or shareware source for
smaller airports for FS '98

Don't know. FS2002 has all US airports though.

3)
I would like to look at my ground track and flight profile to
see how it compares to the track of the instrument approach.
I found the "flight analysis" "course tracking", which is a
start. But is there a way to scan back along the course?

Don't know exactly. The flight recorder in FS2000/2002 (again, can't recall
if it's in FS98) allows you to go forward and backward on the flight. I
think it might also show a route that was entered in the GPS, for comparison
to a specific ground track.

4) Slewing. Often where I want to be is a couple miles from a
ground-based navaid which I can specify easily as a lat-long.
But when I type "y" for slewing, the plane just spins around and
around. Doesn't seem to respond to keyboard controls specified
for slewing in different directions. Anyone else have this problem
and what's the cure?

I haven't seen this. Slewing works as advertised for me. Have you
double-checked your key assignments to make sure they didn't get munged
somehow?

Basically one thing all these questions might amount to is, should
we upgrade? We skipped FS 2000 because we heard it was such a
system hog. We have a pretty fast, large-memory system now, we
just haven't bothered to upgrade.

FS2000 *was* a huge system hog. FS2002 is much better.

We could upgrade to MSFS 2002 or 2004 but I'd hate to do it if it
would mean more airports and better scenery, but the same flight
model inaccuracies. The VSI (pitch excursion) aspect of the flight
modeling in particular is driving me fairly wild.

Not knowing exactly what problems you're having, I can't tell you whether
you'll see the same thing in FS2002/04. However, while the airplanes
certainly aren't exactly like the real thing, I have not noticed either of
the problems you've seen. What does the altimeter show you when the VSI is
acting up? Maybe the VSI is just inaccurately simulated (shouldn't be using
it as your primary reference anyway, due to the lag in the instrument).

The one caveat I can think of is that there are often hassles getting planes
made for older versions of MSFS to work with newer versions. You should
probably try to verify that you know of a working Cheetah/Tiger model before
you bother upgrading.

I guess all of the above isn't really that much help. Sorry I didn't have
better...

Pete

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:56:13 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli
wrote:

OK, your patience please. I'm a very novice simmer.

I'm a pilot trying to clean more rust off her instrument
skills than I have flight time for, since the birth of my
daughter.

I'm trying to use MSFS '98 to fly instrument approaches.

My husband has it configured with CH products yoke and rudder
pedals.

I've been flying a Grumman Cheetah someone else modeled and
I found on the net, since IRL I fly a Grumman Tiger and it's
nice to have the power settings etc etc be fairly close to real
life.

snipped

Aircraft input realism can vary significantly from plane to plane, but
your observation regarding pitch control is a good one. That is the
single most difficult motion to get right. That being said, it is not
hopeless.

First, I would recommend upgrading if your machine is capable enough.
I don't recall how much of a resource hog '98 was. 2000 was bad and
2002 showed a big improvement. Microsoft is just about to release
2004 so you may want to wait. Upgrading will solve the airport issue.
I believe that the flight models are better also, although the
improvement is marginal. There are ways to edit the flight model
values but I've never done that so I'll leave that to others. But be
aware that the option is there to tweak the planes characteristics.

I control my fine pitch adjustments with trim. I have two of the
buttons on my yoke programmed for trim up and trim down. That way I
can tap the button once or twice to get a more realistic change in
pitch. This is counter to the mantra "don't fly the plane with the
trim wheel" but it works. We have to make compromises as there are
differences between flying a computer and flying a real plane. I have
been using Flight Simulator since it was first produced by SubLogic in
the early eighties but I only got my PP ticket earlier this month.
From that perspective, I can tell you that there are a number of
things that are easier in the real plane than they are on the sim.

Another suggestion that I have is to search for aftermarket planes for
the sim. I know that's a problem for the Grumman because I tried to
find one a while back to show my CFI (she has one). I also downloaded
many 152s to use while I was training. One of those, and only one,
provided me with a flight model that was acceptable. It is very
possible that you will find and aftermarket plane that performs more
realistically than any of the default planes. Good luck.

Rich Russell

Sydney Hoeltzli schrieb:

OK, your patience please. I'm a very novice simmer.

I'm a pilot trying to clean more rust off her instrument
skills than I have flight time for, since the birth of my
daughter.

I'm trying to use MSFS '98 to fly instrument approaches.

My husband has it configured with CH products yoke and rudder
pedals.

I've been flying a Grumman Cheetah someone else modeled and
I found on the net, since IRL I fly a Grumman Tiger and it's
nice to have the power settings etc etc be fairly close to real
life.

The questions.

1)
Allowing for my sim inexperience, the aerodynamic behavior
appears to suck great big rocks. My hat is off to people who
have hundreds of hours flying instrument approaches in MSFS
to 2/20 standards.

In particular, the pitch axis is way too twitchy. A small
yoke movement will produce 1000 ft rate on the VSI without
large airspeed excursions. IRL, such a rate requires 1)
a larger yoke movement 2) the airspeed will be winding up
(or down) fast.

I thought it might just be the plane, but I tried the stock
C182 and it was the same where IRL "way haul away" is the
yoke MO in a C182. I tape my wrists when I'm flying one at
forward CG.

Are there any settings I'm missing which could "tweak" this?
Any advice about setting the yoke controls to minimize this?

Go into the setings and reduce the elevator sensitivity.

2)
We are missing many local airports from our database (St. Louis
area). The big Class D and B airports are there, but the smaller
GA airports aren't. Is there a freeware or shareware source for
smaller airports for FS '98

You might look at one of the sites like www.avsim.com for freeware
scenery for FS98, or just Google FS98 Scenery GA.


3)
I would like to look at my ground track and flight profile to
see how it compares to the track of the instrument approach.
I found the "flight analysis" "course tracking", which is a
start. But is there a way to scan back along the course? Or
to compare it to a specified ground track? Is there a freeware
or shareware product which will do this? (ie allow one to specify
a flight path or procedure to be flown, then compare what was flown)?
Or at least to display ground-based navaids and features (like runway)
at a map height which will allow a decent amount of the track to be
displayed?

I heard mention of a product called "Nav" by Tim Wright, will this
do it? If so what version do we want for FS '98 and where do we
obtain it?

I used Nav (by Ted Wright) to display the navaids in FS98, and design
flightplans. A great piece of freeware.
The FS98 handbook gives you no idea how many navaids are really there.


4) Slewing. Often where I want to be is a couple miles from a
ground-based navaid which I can specify easily as a lat-long.
But when I type "y" for slewing, the plane just spins around and
around. Doesn't seem to respond to keyboard controls specified
for slewing in different directions. Anyone else have this problem
and what's the cure?

I've seen this happen. Most likely your joystick/yoke controls are
mapped as inputs to slew mode.
Go into your FS98 settings and make sure there are no joystick/yoke
settings for slew mode.

Tom



Basically one thing all these questions might amount to is, should
we upgrade? We skipped FS 2000 because we heard it was such a
system hog. We have a pretty fast, large-memory system now, we
just haven't bothered to upgrade.

Should we invest in a newer sim and if so, which one? I'd
like:
1) realistic flight modeling of a small GA plane, preferably
a 4-place Grumman
2) a reasonably realistic and easy to set instrument panel
(ie I want to be able to set radios while I'm flying, it's
part of what I need to practice, not switch to a different
view which blocks the instruments)
3) decent wind modeling
4) a good database of airports and navaids
5) the ability to analyse my ground track and flight profile
after the flight.

I could care less about "eye candy" scenery or flying fancy planes
right now. But, I don't want to pay hundreds of bucks for an IFR
sim which doesn't model a plane of similar performance and settings
to mine and no chance of a shareware or freeware model, either.
And I gotta admit, the spouse is more into "eye candy" and fancy
planes when he has time to sit down at the sim.

The eye candy is a major factor with FS2002. Make sure your machine is
up to it- at least 256kbytes, 800 MHz, and a 3d graphics card. Otherwise
stick with FS98.

Tom


We could upgrade to MSFS 2002 or 2004 but I'd hate to do it if it
would mean more airports and better scenery, but the same flight
model inaccuracies. The VSI (pitch excursion) aspect of the flight
modeling in particular is driving me fairly wild.

Thanks for any help,
Sydney

Richard Russell wrote in message . ..

First, I would recommend upgrading if your machine is capable enough.
I don't recall how much of a resource hog '98 was. 2000 was bad and
2002 showed a big improvement. Microsoft is just about to release
2004 so you may want to wait. Upgrading will solve the airport issue.
I believe that the flight models are better also, although the
improvement is marginal. There are ways to edit the flight model
values but I've never done that so I'll leave that to others. But be
aware that the option is there to tweak the planes characteristics.

OK...where would I find info on how to do this? Anyone know?
Do I need a special Airplane Designer program to do it?

I control my fine pitch adjustments with trim.

Me, too. But the yoke is still so sensitive that
it's very difficult to obtain small rates of climb
and descent (100 fpm) to adjust altitude excursions,
or to adjust the rate of descent on an ILS.

I tried turning down the sensitivity of the yoke,
but I'm not sure that helped. It may actually have
made the problem worse -- I have to push a bit harder
to get any change, and the window between "some change"
and "huge change" seems narrower, if this makes sense.

Another suggestion that I have is to search for aftermarket planes for
the sim. I know that's a problem for the Grumman because I tried to
find one a while back to show my CFI (she has one).

We have 2 Cheetahs and a Tiger. I've been flying one of the
Cheetahs because it's better than the Tiger on the pitch excursions,
but acting on your advice I'll try the other Cheetah and see if
it's better. It would be great if I could tweak the Cheetah
I'm using, though. It has Narco Nav radios, which are convenient
as one doesn't have to bring up a seperate radio stack to change
frequencies.

I've been checking to see if there are aftermarket Grummans
available for 2002 (or upcoming 2004) and so far No Joy,
anyone know of one? Doubtless I don't know the best places
to check....is it possible to convert planes from '98 to 2002/4?

Does 2002/4 take care of the flight trace/profile view problem?

Thanks!
Sydney

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
I tried turning down the sensitivity of the yoke,
but I'm not sure that helped. It may actually have
made the problem worse -- I have to push a bit harder
to get any change, and the window between "some change"
and "huge change" seems narrower, if this makes sense.

I'm betting you got the right setting, but just in case...
Make sure you are adjusting the sensitivity and not the "null zone".

I've tried both, actually. Perhaps I can improve somewhat
with more tinkering, but I'm forming the opinion that the
flight model is perhaps just not what we'd like.

It's been strongly suggested to us that we upgrade before
trying to tweak planes, so we're looking into that -- anyone
know of a Tiger or Cheetah for FS '2002 and will '2002 planes
work in the upcoming release (2004)?

Thanks,
Sydney

"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
Peter Duniho wrote:
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
I tried turning down the sensitivity of the yoke,
but I'm not sure that helped. It may actually have
made the problem worse -- I have to push a bit harder
to get any change, and the window between "some change"
and "huge change" seems narrower, if this makes sense.

I'm betting you got the right setting, but just in case...
Make sure you are adjusting the sensitivity and not the "null zone".

I've tried both, actually. Perhaps I can improve somewhat
with more tinkering, but I'm forming the opinion that the
flight model is perhaps just not what we'd like.

It's been strongly suggested to us that we upgrade before
trying to tweak planes, so we're looking into that -- anyone
know of a Tiger or Cheetah for FS '2002 and will '2002 planes
work in the upcoming release (2004)?


Go to avsim.com. At the top of the Avsim.com home page, there is a menu
system that says "File Library / Forums / Reviews / Partners" etc etc .
Click on "File Library". This will bring up the Avsim File Library index
page with a Search feature. Do a search for the file
"grumman_aa5_2002.zip". This will net you a FS2002 Tiger by Jose Miranda
and Robert Rent. The panel is decent although having never been in an AA5 I
don't know if it is up to your standards. This aicraft will work in FS2002.
There are instructions on how to install it into FS2002. It will not work
in FS98.

Microsoft is advertising that FS2002 aircraft will work in FS2004 *if* the
aircraft was designed correctly. Basically this means that FS2002 aircraft
designed in GMAX or FSDS2 should port over to FS2004 without any trouble.
Aircraft designed for FS2K and FS98 will not work in FS2004.

Regards,

Chip

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:56:13 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli
wrote:

OK, your patience please. I'm a very novice simmer.


[snipped many tales of woe]

All your problems stem from your misconception that MSFS98 is a
'flight simulator', whereas in fact it is a 'game'.

Talk to your RL instructor about purchasing a flight simulator that
will count IFR hours towards your PPL.

Paul

---------------------------------------
Milton Keynes - twinned with Mos Eisley

Chip Jones wrote:

Go to avsim.com. At the top of the Avsim.com home page, there is a menu
system that says "File Library / Forums / Reviews / Partners" etc etc .
Click on "File Library". This will bring up the Avsim File Library index
page with a Search feature. Do a search for the file
"grumman_aa5_2002.zip".

Thanks, Chip. Wilco. I'm embarrassed now; I searched that site for
"Grumman" "Tiger" etc, No Joy.

Must be too CAVU a day here to see the traffic

This will net you a FS2002 Tiger by Jose Miranda
and Robert Rent. The panel is decent although having never been
in an AA5 I don't know if it is up to your standards.

I don't think my standards are too fussy, but if there's something
I'd really like changed I'll come pestering you again for how-to.

The real issue is how it flies and whether I can come to terms
with it.

Thanks again!
Importunate Sydney (watching the mailbox)

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:25:02 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli
wrote:

Paul Bookham wrote:

[snipped many tales of woe]

and here I thought they were descriptions and questions....

All your problems stem from your misconception that MSFS98 is a
'flight simulator', whereas in fact it is a 'game'.

I really appreciate all the folks who've tried to help me
on group and in email. Thanks a bunch Guys! Many of my
problems are fixed, and I'm off to download what look like
some promising solutions to others. Upgrading is in the
works.

Talk to your RL instructor about purchasing a flight simulator that
will count IFR hours towards your PPL.

As phrased, this statement makes no sense; there is no such
thing as "IFR hours towards your PPL".

I agree now that I've read that again.

I'd be happy to explain
the aeronautical experience requirements for a PPL and for the
rating which lets a PPL fly under IFR, the instrument rating,
as well as to what extent simulator time of various sorts can
be counted.

But, not knowing if folks here are interested, I'll skip it.

Suffice to say, I already have my PPL, I already have all the
hours I need for an instrument rating, so I have no interest
in whether or not the FAA will let me log the hours.

Sorry, I didn't realise that.

By the way, I have 20 FAA-allowed sim hrs in a device
called an "ATC 710", and you might be very surprised at
how poorly the old FAA-approved sims actually operate.
You might say they suffer from the misconception that
it is a flight simulator, while in fact it is a game,
hee hee.

Well, I could in no way describe one of those things as entertaining.

Paul
---------------------------------------
Milton Keynes - twinned with Mos Eisley