Downwind to final turns

There is another active thread on use of spoilers which bought up various opinions. Was wondering the pluses and minuses of various pattern procedures I was taught to make a 90 degree turn from downwind to base. On the base leg if too high I could angle away from runway until the 90 (or more at this Piont ) turn to final. Using spoilers anytime.

I have found over time I have adjusted my pattern to a long continuous 180 degree turn from downwind to final. I can make changes in the 180 as needed to arrive at my aim point. I do tend to fly 60 knots unless the wind is howling, then I might add a few more knots as at home field there is a steep winded gradient. Home field, Off field or another airport I fly the same and slow down on final so I always have a low energy landing. I fly flapped birds, one a two seat open class and the other a 18 meter. On the open bird I put in flaps on downwind and leave them alone, schempp, on the 18 AS, with larger flap deflection I only put in landing flap on final when landing is assured,Thoughts comments, different way of doing things?

Arguably, the base leg may be the most important leg. A proper length base leg allows a pilot to make adjustments - shortening the base leg and turning onto the final leg early if it is perceived to low (angle too shallow) or turning away from the landing area if it is perceived you are too high.

This adjustment allowance is especially important when landing at a strange airport, or even more important when landing off field.

It should also be noted extending the base leg and performing a "button hook" landing pattern can be very dangerous - especially if there is a wind gradient or turbulence.

A disciplined, rectangular, properly spaced landing pattern is a very important judgment tool as a pilot advances to cross country flying with the risks of off field landings.

A common error is flying too close to the landing area while on the downwind leg - leaving inadequate space for a proper base leg.

Tom Knauff

Thank you Tom for your input. Not sure why I started to fly the 180 turn instead of two 90's with a proper base. It seems like I could shallow the bank to make a longer turn while adding spoiler and still judging that looks about right if needed, or I could steepen the turn to shorten if needed. Just seemed simpler . I do see other posters advocating the 180 "button hook". I think I will go back to the squared off pattern.

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Thank you Tom for your input. Not sure why I started to fly the 180 turn instead of two 90's with a proper base. It seems like I could shallow the bank to make a longer turn while adding spoiler and still judging that looks about right if needed, or I could steepen the turn to shorten if needed. Just seemed simpler . I do see other posters advocating the 180 "button hook". I think I will go back to the squared off pattern.

The "button hook" was relating to a turn close to the ground if you go past the runway center line (low bank angle, late turn, not allowing for x-wind, etc.), not the "180 from downwind to final".

As to me (and what I taught) was to fly a downwind that gave a ground track parallel to the runway, turn ~90* (base leg) when touchdown is ~45* behind you, turn final when needed to line up but NOT overshoot the runway.
You could adjust dive brakes/spoilers as needed (usually start with ~1/2) or angle the base in or out as needed.
Once on final, you should only need to "fine tune" to hit your mark.

Listen to the wind noise, scan against the horizon (pitch attitude), glance at vario, keep asking, "Does it look good, does it sound right, does it feel right?" Adjust things so it's all good.

I understand Soaring magazine will publish an article about landing technique in the coming month or three.

Tom

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 10:56:21 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Arguably, the base leg may be the most important leg. A proper length base leg allows a pilot to make adjustments - shortening the base leg and turning onto the final leg early if it is perceived to low (angle too shallow) or turning away from the landing area if it is perceived you are too high.

This adjustment allowance is especially important when landing at a strange airport, or even more important when landing off field.

It should also be noted extending the base leg and performing a "button hook" landing pattern can be very dangerous - especially if there is a wind gradient or turbulence.

A disciplined, rectangular, properly spaced landing pattern is a very important judgment tool as a pilot advances to cross country flying with the risks of off field landings.

A common error is flying too close to the landing area while on the downwind leg - leaving inadequate space for a proper base leg.

Tom Knauff

I don't think I would say either rectangular patterns or a 180 turn to final is "best". The USN has certainly shown the 180 turn is best for landing on carriers and they have really tight parameters. Rectangular patterns seem to work well for others. "Best" is what works for the pilot.

I find I can make very large energy/height/distance adjustments during a 180 turn to final even with a very close-in downwind leg by simply adjusting the turn radius, adding or subtracting a little spoiler or slip. I can also make large adjustments from a rectangular pattern. However, I think the visual information needed before making those adjustments is easier to see from a close-in 180 approach.

I see many pilots making rectangular patterns arrive way too high as they turn final because they were uncertain whether they could use spoilers until they were established on final where they had good visual cues. I've also seen many pilots get in trouble at the downwind to base turn in a rectanguolar pattern when they found themselves too far from the runway. I've never seen these things happen with a simple close-in 180 turn.

Good points, which is why I started to fly the 180, but was looking for comments from other pilots as to the pros and cons. Also what is taught in other counties.

The Air Force taught (and probably still does teach) the 360 deg
overhead pattern as a way to keep aircraft inside the field boundaries.
I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong trying to shoot me
down these days but, since I've done it that way for over 40 years, I'm
much more comfortable with the 180 deg descending turn to final than
with a bomber pattern. And, when flying the tow plane, it gets me on
the ground much quicker and ready for the next tow.

On 6/4/2015 5:21 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Good points, which is why I started to fly the 180, but was looking for comments from other pilots as to the pros and cons. Also what is taught in other counties.

--
Dan Marotta

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 5:26:59 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
The Air Force taught (and probably still does teach) the 360 deg
overhead pattern as a way to keep aircraft inside the field
boundaries.* I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong
trying to shoot me down these days but, since I've done it that way
for over 40 years, I'm much more comfortable with the 180 deg
descending turn to final than with a bomber pattern.* And, when
flying the tow plane, it gets me on the ground much quicker and
ready for the next tow.




On 6/4/2015 5:21 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud
wrote:



Good points, which is why I started to fly the 180, but was looking for comments from other pilots as to the pros and cons. Also what is taught in other counties.





--

Dan Marotta

I actually like a 270 overhead pattern where the "IP" is the point where the "crosswind' passes over the runway. The downwind I like is about a 1/2 mile out from the runway and the turn from downwind to final requires a gentle bank with plenty of opportunity for adjustments.

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:26:59 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong
trying to shoot me down these days...

I'm waiting for someone to mistake a silently thermaling glider for an FBI surveillance aircraft.