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US Competition Pilot Poll and Election



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 4th 16, 07:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

Hello US contest pilots.
The annual competition rules poll and election of rules subcommittee members is now open at
http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php
The poll and election is open to all pilots on the ranking list.
Please take the time to fill out the poll. provide comments and input and vote for
your next representative.
UH
SSA RC Chair
  #2  
Old October 4th 16, 10:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 2,124
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 2:18:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hello US contest pilots.
The annual competition rules poll and election of rules subcommittee members is now open at
http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php
The poll and election is open to all pilots on the ranking list.
Please take the time to fill out the poll. provide comments and input and vote for
your next representative.
UH
SSA RC Chair


Oops
Dave Nadler noticed that the first question did not have checkboxes for multiple selections. I did a quick change to fix it but also noticed that 22 folks have submitted poll responses. Folks can go back and update their responses until the last day the poll is open.

Aland

  #3  
Old October 5th 16, 02:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 11:18:06 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Hello US contest pilots.
The annual competition rules poll and election of rules subcommittee members is now open at
http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php
The poll and election is open to all pilots on the ranking list.
Please take the time to fill out the poll. provide comments and input and vote for
your next representative.
UH
SSA RC Chair


Interesting that the question about FLARM is inherently biased against. This is a textbook case of asking a question while begging a specific response.. The question is something like "Did focusing your attention on FLARM cause a loss of situational awareness..." I consider it far more likely that focusing my attention on FLARM increased my situational awareness and said so in the comments.

A more appropriate wording would be, "Considering the information provided by, and the attention required by the FLARM display, how did use of FLARM affect your overall situational awareness?" This is much closer to a neutral question. But we know where the hearts of the writers lie.....
  #4  
Old October 5th 16, 04:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean[_2_]
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Posts: 174
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

I have been saying that the opinion poll is often designed to "steer" its readers towards particular responses for years now.

But, I have another, broader question.

Why do we mindlessly waste our time every year squabbling about US rules and opinion polls when we could simply "put the US rules out to pasture" and rejoin the international FAI system? Why is it "religion" that we continue forward with US rules? Why are US rules so important? Should we at least be considering FAI? At least asking the opinion of all our US contest pilots?

Of course, using US rules requires us to also develop and maintain our own custom scoring software tools? The truth is that Winscore is barely supportable. If our single developer, for whatever reason, suddenly quits supporting it we are in deep trouble. Winscore is a hard program to learn and few can use it effectively.

One the other hand, a proven international soaring rule system, called FAI, exists. The FAI rule system is used by most countries and the vast majority of total soaring contest worldwide, including the WGC, use the FAI rules.. By leaving US rules behind (out there somewhere, happily eating fresh grass in a lovely pasture) we would save ourselves tremendous amounts of mind-numbing debate, significant volunteer effort (rules committee) and simultaneously rejoin the world soaring community in a common, familiar and effective soaring rule system (and ranking system).

So, what is the TRUE, measured value of carrying on with our own custom "US only" soaring rule system?

What advantage do we "enjoy?" because we have our own unique rule system? What is the "return on investment" vs. the "cost" of further supporting US rules (and being isolated)?

Measurements. Do the US rules result in increased contest participation in the USA vs. other nations which use FAI? Easier contest administration? Increased safety? Better racing? Improved competition skills development? How about US international competitiveness? Junior interest? I don't see any of those measures showing any measurable improvement for the USA. In fact, relative to Europe , US soaring has fallen well behind in many of those measurements when compared to FAI countries since the US changed to US rules? Have they not? Who can prove me wrong? Data? Where are we better off?

Again, what is the TRUE value in maintaining our own unique US soaring competition rules? Why are we the only country that has its own unique rules? Why is the question of adopting FAI never part of the US rules committee's discussions (or our comedy relief opinion poll) or just in regular, broader discussions?

Are the US RC members expected to be open-minded and creative thinkers looking for the best general direction or are they US rule "church" arbiters dedicated only to the continuation of the US rules (and destroyers of any other ideas)?

What measured facts make carrying on with US Rules so critical? What would the result of a return to FAI be (the same rules used by all other soaring countries)? These are simple, basic, sensible and fundamental questions that, in my opinion, should be asked regularly by the SSA in general. Yet they NEVER are asked, formally or informally.

Is this discussion blasphemy? If so, why is that blasphemy?

Wouldn't the effort spent supporting the US rules committee be better spent on other SSA priorities? Surely we have more critical objectives? Hard things like finding ways to get more families, children and youth pilots interested in soaring. Or like youth soaring competition development. Or growing contest participation. Etc.

And yes, the question on Flarm is fairly obvious.

But more important that predictable stuff, the US rules, and its annual opinion poll have become a big yawn. As if this yearly tuning exercise is going to yield a big break-thru. What is the goal of all this US rules drudgery? What do we expect to happen? A sudden turn around in participation? Not likely. We need some big thinkers. We need some new ideas. At least we need some different voices at the table. It's getting really old.

To that point, both Michael Westbrook and I (both current US team members and both significantly younger than the average US RC member) had our US RC nominations "thrown out" by our "wise and powerful" regional directors. We were therefore not included on the current US RC election ballot. Non "good old boys" need not apply I guess...
  #5  
Old October 5th 16, 06:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Kelley #711
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Posts: 306
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 9:51:38 PM UTC-6, Sean wrote:
I have been saying that the opinion poll is often designed to "steer" its readers towards particular responses for years now.

But, I have another, broader question.

Why do we mindlessly waste our time every year squabbling about US rules and opinion polls when we could simply "put the US rules out to pasture" and rejoin the international FAI system? Why is it "religion" that we continue forward with US rules? Why are US rules so important? Should we at least be considering FAI? At least asking the opinion of all our US contest pilots?

Of course, using US rules requires us to also develop and maintain our own custom scoring software tools? The truth is that Winscore is barely supportable. If our single developer, for whatever reason, suddenly quits supporting it we are in deep trouble. Winscore is a hard program to learn and few can use it effectively.

One the other hand, a proven international soaring rule system, called FAI, exists. The FAI rule system is used by most countries and the vast majority of total soaring contest worldwide, including the WGC, use the FAI rules. By leaving US rules behind (out there somewhere, happily eating fresh grass in a lovely pasture) we would save ourselves tremendous amounts of mind-numbing debate, significant volunteer effort (rules committee) and simultaneously rejoin the world soaring community in a common, familiar and effective soaring rule system (and ranking system).

So, what is the TRUE, measured value of carrying on with our own custom "US only" soaring rule system?

What advantage do we "enjoy?" because we have our own unique rule system? What is the "return on investment" vs. the "cost" of further supporting US rules (and being isolated)?

Measurements. Do the US rules result in increased contest participation in the USA vs. other nations which use FAI? Easier contest administration? Increased safety? Better racing? Improved competition skills development? How about US international competitiveness? Junior interest? I don't see any of those measures showing any measurable improvement for the USA. In fact, relative to Europe , US soaring has fallen well behind in many of those measurements when compared to FAI countries since the US changed to US rules? Have they not? Who can prove me wrong? Data? Where are we better off?

Again, what is the TRUE value in maintaining our own unique US soaring competition rules? Why are we the only country that has its own unique rules? Why is the question of adopting FAI never part of the US rules committee's discussions (or our comedy relief opinion poll) or just in regular, broader discussions?

Are the US RC members expected to be open-minded and creative thinkers looking for the best general direction or are they US rule "church" arbiters dedicated only to the continuation of the US rules (and destroyers of any other ideas)?

What measured facts make carrying on with US Rules so critical? What would the result of a return to FAI be (the same rules used by all other soaring countries)? These are simple, basic, sensible and fundamental questions that, in my opinion, should be asked regularly by the SSA in general. Yet they NEVER are asked, formally or informally.

Is this discussion blasphemy? If so, why is that blasphemy?

Wouldn't the effort spent supporting the US rules committee be better spent on other SSA priorities? Surely we have more critical objectives? Hard things like finding ways to get more families, children and youth pilots interested in soaring. Or like youth soaring competition development. Or growing contest participation. Etc.

And yes, the question on Flarm is fairly obvious.

But more important that predictable stuff, the US rules, and its annual opinion poll have become a big yawn. As if this yearly tuning exercise is going to yield a big break-thru. What is the goal of all this US rules drudgery? What do we expect to happen? A sudden turn around in participation? Not likely. We need some big thinkers. We need some new ideas. At least we need some different voices at the table. It's getting really old.

To that point, both Michael Westbrook and I (both current US team members and both significantly younger than the average US RC member) had our US RC nominations "thrown out" by our "wise and powerful" regional directors. We were therefore not included on the current US RC election ballot. Non "good old boys" need not apply I guess...


Sean, I believe that only one nomination per Region is presently allowed. They may have looked at National wins, time in the sport including past wins/awards, etc as setting the bar when others applied within the same region. Experience/time does play a role in any sport as I am sure you would agree.. Some one contested this but somehow it slipped or missed getting removed.. I sincerely don't think it was done in a manner to degrade or demean anyone. These folks I have known for many years and our sport just isn't geared to this way of thinking. Please consider my thoughts as being friendly and helpful. As far as age goes, Garett Willat was a member of the rules committee when he was a younger man, ha, much younger as a matter of fact. He was a National/Regional winner and as you know has been in the sport for many years. So age is not the case.

Concerning FAI rules. Our's are already very close to FAI rules. We do have several scoring quirks as does the WGC rules. But it should also be remembered that the hosting country of the WGC can modify the rules. Our rules just pamper more to make our contests more sociable as many have felt that was the best way to go. A World Champion should be able to adapt to whatever situation he is presented with. Those Champs that I have competed against adapt and win.
Our start cylinder is different(yet its best to remember the CD has the option of a start line). But after start the task's called are still a challenge as they should be for all entrants. I know the mat is difficult as it was/has been for many including me. But now I see it as a good test/challenge of developed soaring skills. The TAT's and AST's are called when the CD (not the entrants) feel it will be a good test for the entrants at that site and contest. How can anyone with good judgement out think what the called task was and why the CD called it when not being their is beyond me.
Many folks have given many hours to develop our sport to where its today. Our rules will never please everyone but please give some thanks because without all these folks giving their time and life, we surely won't be enjoying the sport of racing sailplanes as we do.
Remember our committees, rules/old folks and good old boys got you to the WGC. Without them, where would you be.......maybe playing with a RC sailboat on a pond at a park?
Best for the WGC. Tom Kelley #711.




  #6  
Old October 5th 16, 04:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean[_2_]
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Posts: 174
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

For anyone interested in reading the FAI RULES for themselves, here is a link: http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/SC3A_2016a

The FAI rules are relatively simple and straightforward. They are also used happily, safely and effectively by the vast majority of soaring countries (all but the USA and Canada) at the regional, national and, of course, the international level at the PAGC, WGC, SGP, etc.

FAI rule competitions use Naviteer's "SeeYou" for scoring. SeeYou is, of course, a popular and successful commercial product which will be supported for years to come. This is very important. There is a great economy of scale in joining the FAI for this reason (scoring) alone. Winscore is very complex to maintain.

The FAI rules are worth a look. There are many other documents which are interesting reading as well. Imagine that if we simply adopted FAI rules, we would not need to spend so much effort on our own custom, isolationist US rules. In fact, we would need almost zero annual effort.

Let us keep open minds and not allow the US rules "cult" to scare you into thinking that FAI rules are "evil." This is a favorite pastime of theirs. I, for one (and there are many others), contend that we would be FAR better off being on the same general rules system as the rest of the soaring competition world. Again, the rest of the world uses FAI rules happily, safely and enjoyably. They also use a common ranking list: http://igcrankings.fai.org ... and a common basic website for competition scheduling, marketing, scoring, promotion, etc. That website is www.soaringspot.com.

Shouldn't we at least be considering FAI? Again why is this blasphemy? Why is this subject never included within our US RULES opinion poll?

What measurable value does the continuation of US rules provide?

What effort would be saved, short term and long, by simply adopting FAI (and putting US rules out to pasture)?

I think that it is a highly sensible conversation for our US soaring community to have.

Is this topic still "blasphemous" or will a possible switch BACK to FAI rules be carefully considered as a reasonable idea?

Please consider reading about the FAI rules for yourself. Don't simply take the word of our so-called experts like the one above. Understand how the FAI rules use Local Procedures (LPs). LPs are a critical FAI rule document (similar to a US rules pilot kit) written by host club organizers (and the CD) to define key local procedures such as the start, finish and associated things in the context of the specific airport that the competition is being held. The LPs allow flexibility for club leaders and CDs to make things safe, comprehensive and comfortable for all competitors.

I'm going to set up a monthly conference call / webex (all invited) to start an ongoing conversation on FAI rules and get US (and Candian) pilots familiar with FAI rules and the differences with US rules. I'm going to bring on guest speakers from other countries to answer questions and talk about key topics. These sessions will, of course, be archived on YouTube for future viewing. PM me if you would like information on how to join this conference series.

Sean
  #7  
Old October 5th 16, 10:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Posts: 483
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Wednesday, 5 October 2016 09:21:03 UTC-6, Sean wrote:
For anyone interested in reading the FAI RULES for themselves, here is a link: http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/SC3A_2016a


The FAI rules are relatively simple and straightforward. They are also used happily, safely and effectively by the vast majority of soaring countries (all but the USA and Canada) at the regional, national and, of course, the international level at the PAGC, WGC, SGP, etc.



This document is for World and Continental FAI contests. Do you have any links for individual countries and what they use? I am not familiar with any local rules other than what is used within the US.

FAI rule competitions use Naviteer's "SeeYou" for scoring. SeeYou is, of course, a popular and successful commercial product which will be supported for years to come. This is very important. There is a great economy of scale in joining the FAI for this reason (scoring) alone. Winscore is very complex to maintain.


Sean I agree that the SSA should get out of the software business. SeeYou will not support the current SSA rules but could come close.

Please note that SeeYou requires the use of "scripts" and they have to be maintained, should be minimal, but none the less SeeYou competition is not as simple as plug and play. I am sure you saw this at the Chillhowee event.

The FAI rules are worth a look. There are many other documents which are interesting reading as well. Imagine that if we simply adopted FAI rules, we would not need to spend so much effort on our own custom, isolationist US rules. In fact, we would need almost zero annual effort.

Let us keep open minds and not allow the US rules "cult" to scare you into thinking that FAI rules are "evil." This is a favorite pastime of theirs.. I, for one (and there are many others), contend that we would be FAR better off being on the same general rules system as the rest of the soaring competition world. Again, the rest of the world uses FAI rules happily, safely and enjoyably. They also use a common ranking list: http://igcrankings..fai.org ... and a common basic website for competition scheduling, marketing, scoring, promotion, etc. That website is www.soaringspot.com.



As 711 pointed out if the SSA was to bite off the FAI way of doing things then everyone has to confirm to their rules and procedures. And yes everyone would have to get a Sporting license, a waste of money in my mind.

The www.soaringspot.com is maintained and owned by Naviter and like above if you commit to it you ave to commit to their processes, rules and priorities. The folks from Naviter were very helpful and flexible during the worlds in Uvalde but they had to make a custom version of SeeYou competition for Uvalde to support the Local Procedures. Not sure if any of the changes survived.

From a event coordinator and scorers point of view the complete picture has to be addressed; event signup, competitor data being passed to the scoring programs to eliminate administration issues, score sheets, task sheets, grid sheets, posting of scores and even the rankings that John L does. Most of these steps are done by and automated with WINSCORE.

Sure they could be duplicated but time and effort will be required. Again I would like to understand how other countries handle their local and regional competitions.

Shouldn't we at least be considering FAI? Again why is this blasphemy? Why is this subject never included within our US RULES opinion poll?

What measurable value does the continuation of US rules provide?

What effort would be saved, short term and long, by simply adopting FAI (and putting US rules out to pasture)?

I think that it is a highly sensible conversation for our US soaring community to have.

Is this topic still "blasphemous" or will a possible switch BACK to FAI rules be carefully considered as a reasonable idea?

Please consider reading about the FAI rules for yourself. Don't simply take the word of our so-called experts like the one above. Understand how the FAI rules use Local Procedures (LPs). LPs are a critical FAI rule document (similar to a US rules pilot kit) written by host club organizers (and the CD) to define key local procedures such as the start, finish and associated things in the context of the specific airport that the competition is being held. The LPs allow flexibility for club leaders and CDs to make things safe, comprehensive and comfortable for all competitors.


Let's not confuse documentation with implementation. Parts of the scoring parameters are hard coded in SeeYou competition but could be changed with the 'scripts' but watch out for the slippery slope.
I'm going to set up a monthly conference call / webex (all invited) to start an ongoing conversation on FAI rules and get US (and Candian) pilots familiar with FAI rules and the differences with US rules. I'm going to bring on guest speakers from other countries to answer questions and talk about key topics. These sessions will, of course, be archived on YouTube for future viewing. PM me if you would like information on how to join this conference series.

Sean


I will try to participate, to learn, and offer my experience. I have scored SSA regional and national competitions sing WINSCORE and the Open Class at the worlds in Uvalde in 2012 using SeeYou Competition.

BTW major procedural changes have been made to SeeYou competition in the last couple of years, just an example of how organizers need to stay on top of the changes and make sure they can find folks to handle the tasks.

One other area that should be explored is the training and of more CD's and Scorers. There are only a handful of each left.

  #8  
Old October 7th 16, 01:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean[_2_]
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Posts: 174
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

Good points Ron.
  #9  
Old October 7th 16, 09:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

Our national competition rules are translation of Sporting Code 3 Annex A, and I've done the translation myself. Some paragraphs were omitted because they were needed in international events only, and some were slightly modified. Since we do not have IGC class structure, that paragraph was rewritten completely. The job took few evenings and 99% of the effort was translation. We update rules every year after Annex A update (usually a line or two). Contest organisers provide local prodecures suited to their needs. This has been going on for at least a decade without any problems.
  #10  
Old October 7th 16, 12:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Per Carlin
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Posts: 90
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 10:29:40 AM UTC+2, krasw wrote:
Our national competition rules are translation of Sporting Code 3 Annex A, and I've done the translation myself. Some paragraphs were omitted because they were needed in international events only, and some were slightly modified. Since we do not have IGC class structure, that paragraph was rewritten completely. The job took few evenings and 99% of the effort was translation. We update rules every year after Annex A update (usually a line or two). Contest organisers provide local prodecures suited to their needs. This has been going on for at least a decade without any problems.


Same goes for Sweden.
We have out national rules, which are based on the IGC SC3. There are a few national adjustments, but not more than that I can more or less participate in a IGC completions without spending hours in reading and understanding SC 3.
When we arrange Open “international” competitions in Sweden do we usually use SC3 to avoid the issues that our guests does not understand Swedish and therefore cant not read our national rules.
 




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