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#11
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Subject: "Cluster bombs called 'war crime'"
From: "Rats" Date: 1/25/04 2:05 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "cypher745" wrote in message om... Rats, may ask if you think that the greater loss of life that would have resulted from a direct invasion of Japan would have a been a better alternative? Umm, what the **** are you going on about? This is about cluster bombs being used indiscriminately and killing civilians. Those accountable should be punished for their actions. The original poster said that Saddam and co should be sued as well. To this I agreed and also added the US presidents he'd conveniently left out. Hey Rats, ever been to war? Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#12
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ubject: "Cluster bombs called 'war crime'"
From: IBM Date: 1/24/04 11:25 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Xns947AEE42DF19Bibmsvpalorg Why did the lawyers not sue Saddam Hussein first? Or the late Soviet leaders for the the Soviet Union's 1956 Invasion of Hungary? the 1968 Invasion of Czechoslovakia; and the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan? Will the late Yuri Andropov and Leonid Brezhnev be labeled as war criminals in historical terms? Because they ( the lawyers ) are looney leftists. A cluster bomb is no more illegal than a rifle bullet. The use to which these instruments are put might constitute a crime under certain conditions however. IBM Lawyers as a voting block are 95% conservative. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#13
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Ragnar wrote:
"Mike Yared" wrote in message ... Why did the lawyers not sue Saddam Hussein first? Or the late Soviet leaders for the the Soviet Union's 1956 Invasion of Hungary? the 1968 Invasion of Czechoslovakia; and the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan? Will the late Yuri Andropov and Leonid Brezhnev be labeled as war criminals in historical terms? The lefties involved in these cases don't sue guys like Stalin because they know what he would do to them. Its easier and more profitable to whine about the USA because they know they can get away with it. Stalin is dead. John |
#14
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This is about cluster bombs being
used indiscriminately and killing civilians. If its about the indiscriminate use of CBUs, no problem since neither the UK nor the US employed *any* weapon indiscriminately. If the issue is UXO from CBU employment, this is another matter and one I believe both the UK and US have done there best to deal with. On averag there's going to be an approximate 10% dud rate for CBU submunitions (BLUs). In both Afghanistan and Iraq, leaflets were dropped warning people to stay away from the unexploded BLUs. Because of the high illiteracy rate in Afghanistan, the leaflets were in picture form. Because of the remote areas where CBUs were used in Afghanistan, civilian contact with UXO is minimal. Iraq is a different story, however a successful one. Submunition dispenser use was pretty heavy in Iraq and included everything from air delivered to Army ATACMS. Use was confined, as much as operationally practicable, to use away from major population areas. With all the use of CBUs in Iraq, and they are still a very important weapon, the low civilian incident rate (by comparison of quantity dropped) speaks well for allied air and ground forces. Those accountable should be punished for their actions. Current CBUs meet all international requirements for a legal weapon, thus no punishment is warrented. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#15
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"Mike Yared" wrote in message ... Cluster bombs called 'war crime' Don't gas bag on. Being called a war criminal is only has major consequences if you loose a war or possibly are captured. If you're an American, Russian, British and possibly Israeli that virtually guarantees that it's irrelevant. Loose and all that hype, propaganda and fabrications against you will turn into victors justice. |
#16
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Mike Yared wrote:
: Why did the lawyers not sue Saddam Hussein first? Or the late Soviet leaders : for the the Soviet Union's 1956 Invasion of Hungary? the 1968 Invasion of : Czechoslovakia; and the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan? Will the late Yuri : Andropov and Leonid Brezhnev be labeled as war criminals in historical : terms? (1) That leaders of state run the risk of having to justify themselves in court is the consequence of the well-functioning of democracy and the rule of law. To argue that it should not happen because dictators do not have to justify themselves, amounts to a plea in favour of totalitarianism -- the only form of government which is compatible with unaccountable government. (2) I have no doubt that in historical terms, Brezhnev and Andropov will be judged harshly. But if the unpunished crimes of some could serve as a sufficient excuse for the misdemeanours of others, the courts of justice would be doomed to almost complete inactivity. Emmanuel Gustin |
#17
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Rats,
In response to your eloquent rebuttal. " Umm, what the **** are you going on about? " It was you who stated the following "Sure, let's put them all on trial. Let's also include the US President responsible for dropping the atomic bombs, the US President responsible for carpet bombing, napalm and agent orange in Vietnam. US hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me." Your statement makes it seem like you think that the use of the atomic bombs by the US should be considered war crimes. As such, my original question is valid. Do you think that the greater loss of life on both sides, that would have resulted from a direct invasion of Japan would have a been a better alternative? I eagerly await your reply. |
#18
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On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:05:58 +1300, "Rats" wrote:
"cypher745" wrote in message om... Rats, may ask if you think that the greater loss of life that would have resulted from a direct invasion of Japan would have a been a better alternative? Umm, what the **** are you going on about? This is about cluster bombs being used indiscriminately and killing civilians. Err. you're the one who changed the subject from cluster bombs to the bombings in WWII, specifically carpet bombing and the nuclear bombing neither of which had cluster bombs included. So getting ****y because someone else challenges you on it is more than a little immature. |
#19
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"Peter Kemp" wrote in message news On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:05:58 +1300, "Rats" wrote: "cypher745" wrote in message om... Rats, may ask if you think that the greater loss of life that would have resulted from a direct invasion of Japan would have a been a better alternative? Umm, what the **** are you going on about? This is about cluster bombs being used indiscriminately and killing civilians. Err. you're the one who changed the subject from cluster bombs to the bombings in WWII, specifically carpet bombing and the nuclear bombing neither of which had cluster bombs included. So getting ****y because someone else challenges you on it is more than a little immature. While war itself may very well be a crime whether political, economic or other, Rats loses sight of the big picture. Bombs are merely tools, no more no less. Use of a Mk81 at 250 pounds or a T12 at 42,000 pounds, CBUs, incendiaries, yes even nuclear are just means to accomplish the mission. Dead is dead. Condemn warfare, not the methods. Peter, he deserves to be called on his inconsistencies. Now if we could change this to a subject such as what parameters should you use to deliver one or more of these bombs from a military aircraft instead of wallowing in general warfare subjects (for which forums already exist) we would separate the wheat (of which there has been damn little lately) from the chaff. Some (I won't say contributors) in this forum seem inordinately fond of submarines, tanks, NASA and politics. If we stuck to military aviation we'd be the better for it plus I would not have to maintain a 'Block Sender' list which Rats is assuredly on. Don't even get me started on Tarver and the fish he hauls in using civilian bait of little quality. Regards, Tex Houston |
#20
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"Mike Yared" wrote: Cluster bombs called 'war crime' Britain's use of cluster bombs in Iraq, similar to the ones used by the United States military, is a "war crime" and should be referred to the International Criminal Court (ICC) for prosecution, academics, lawyers and human rights activists in London said earlier this week. at http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040...3737-4342r.htm Why did the lawyers not sue Saddam Hussein first? Or the late Soviet leaders for the the Soviet Union's 1956 Invasion of Hungary? the 1968 Invasion of Czechoslovakia; and the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan? Will the late Yuri Andropov and Leonid Brezhnev be labeled as war criminals in historical terms? The problem with academics and many of those complaining about CBUs is that they are often coming from left-of-center. Sound familiar? Ramsey Clark and his fronts for the WWP: "International Action Center and ANSWER" come to mind. Kind of hard to understand the positions of such people when they wave signs saying "Socialist Worker". Where were these folks when Saddam was busy killing Kurds, Shiites, Kuwaitis, and Iranians? Saddam started two wars and lost them. Anyone notice that those complaining about CBUs were prewar apologists for Saddam? He provoked a third, and lost his regime, power, and freedom. I'll take use of CBUs to take out SAM sites, AAA and other artillery batteries, truck parks, fuel and ammo dumps, radar stations, armor, and other military targets. Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access! |
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