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Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....



 
 
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  #31  
Old March 12th 18, 04:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Posts: 348
Default Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.

Ramy
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  #32  
Old March 12th 18, 04:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 3,118
Default Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

Ramy,

Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
LiFePO4, if not already done?* Room for another battery?

While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
to drive all these new fangled contraptions.* Maybe I should remove the
espresso machine from my Stemme...* Naaah...* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)

On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.

Ramy


--
Dan, 5J
  #33  
Old March 12th 18, 09:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 348
Default Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ramy,

Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
LiFePO4, if not already done?* Room for another battery?

While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
to drive all these new fangled contraptions.* Maybe I should remove the
espresso machine from my Stemme...* Naaah...* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)

On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.

Ramy


--
Dan, 5J


Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.

Ramy
  #34  
Old March 31st 18, 05:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]om
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 389
Default Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:52:08 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ramy,

Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
LiFePO4, if not already done?* Room for another battery?

While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
to drive all these new fangled contraptions.* Maybe I should remove the
espresso machine from my Stemme...* Naaah...* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)

On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.

Ramy


--
Dan, 5J


Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.

Ramy


Darryl and Ramy,
I just completed installation of the TN72 with proper GPS antenna on my (updated firmware) Trig 22 for my '29. If it's not too much of a hassle, how do you configure the TT22 for ASD-B out? I understand that SIL-3 should be selected in the config screen (I'm EXPERIMENTAL). What else to look for?
Thanks,
Herb J7
  #35  
Old March 31st 18, 10:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,131
Default Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 9:00:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:52:08 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ramy,

Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
LiFePO4, if not already done?* Room for another battery?

While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
to drive all these new fangled contraptions.* Maybe I should remove the
espresso machine from my Stemme...* Naaah...* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)

On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.

Ramy

--
Dan, 5J


Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.

Ramy


Darryl and Ramy,
I just completed installation of the TN72 with proper GPS antenna on my (updated firmware) Trig 22 for my '29. If it's not too much of a hassle, how do you configure the TT22 for ASD-B out? I understand that SIL-3 should be selected in the config screen (I'm EXPERIMENTAL). What else to look for?
Thanks,
Herb J7


Herb

First, did you install a pitot pressure "squat" switch? The TT21/TT22 can use GPS ground speed (and other inputs) to guess airborne/ground determination but it can have problems in wave flight.

For a TAB/SIL=1 install you can just set the squat switch setting in the transponder to NONE, and it will be always airborne. For a 2020 Complaint/SIL=3 install, as silly as it may be in gliders, buried in CFR 14 91.227 is the need for air/ground determination and I've been recommending people just use the pressure switch from the TN70/TT22 STC kit that is available for ~$125. The set point of those switches is around 36 knots, and its a simple SPST switch plumbed between pitot and static that is used to ground pin 19? (check the transponder install manual) on the transponder connector. All of Trig's glider dealers should know how to order this kit from EDMO, and hopefully they are pointing this out as well to TN72 purchasers. Some of those glider dealers who make cables are also now including wiring for that squat switch, check with your dealer if buying cables from them. If you are sure you will never fly in wave then you could use the GPS "AUTO" squat switch setting, but transmitting ground status messages when airborne is not good and may get you attention from FSDO folks watching ADS-B performance.

I'm not sure where Trig is at on this, I was hoping they might mention this in documentation, there was some discussion about maybe improving the auto GPS based algorithm. I am not sure any vendor can get this really robust with gliders (not unless you use GPS groundspeed combined with a gear down microswitch... by which time you might as well use the pitot switch), or that the testing and development hassle is worth it. To me a better approach for all involved in gliders is just to bite the bullet and use the airspeed switch if doing a 2020 Compliant install.

With the pressure switch installed and squat switch enabled in the transponder setting turn the transponder to "ALT" and conform that the LCD display then switches from "GND" to "ALT" when the IAS passes roughly mid-high 30's knots.

I'm not sure what exact a "proper" GPS antenna is, and where it is installed? Some folk doing instal are (re)discovering that GPS antenna placement for these installs is critical. I've been warning about that, Andrzej Kobus warns about it in this very thread, and he's been through this before anybody else. Everybody installing a ADS-B Out SIL=3 install needs to be *very* careful with GPS antenna install, give that antenna the best possible placement, treat the GPS antenna install as an experiments and pull FAA ADS-B reports for multiple flights where the glider is banking steeply/thermlling and see if the system looks to be performing acceptably (esp. the NIC parameter reported), and that they have also not got other things mis configured..

Lets move further setup questions to email for now.

  #36  
Old April 1st 18, 05:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 389
Default Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 4:07:12 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 9:00:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:52:08 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ramy,

Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
LiFePO4, if not already done?* Room for another battery?

While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
to drive all these new fangled contraptions.* Maybe I should remove the
espresso machine from my Stemme...* Naaah...* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)

On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.

Ramy

--
Dan, 5J

Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.

Ramy


Darryl and Ramy,
I just completed installation of the TN72 with proper GPS antenna on my (updated firmware) Trig 22 for my '29. If it's not too much of a hassle, how do you configure the TT22 for ASD-B out? I understand that SIL-3 should be selected in the config screen (I'm EXPERIMENTAL). What else to look for?
Thanks,
Herb J7


Herb

First, did you install a pitot pressure "squat" switch? The TT21/TT22 can use GPS ground speed (and other inputs) to guess airborne/ground determination but it can have problems in wave flight.

For a TAB/SIL=1 install you can just set the squat switch setting in the transponder to NONE, and it will be always airborne. For a 2020 Complaint/SIL=3 install, as silly as it may be in gliders, buried in CFR 14 91.227 is the need for air/ground determination and I've been recommending people just use the pressure switch from the TN70/TT22 STC kit that is available for ~$125. The set point of those switches is around 36 knots, and its a simple SPST switch plumbed between pitot and static that is used to ground pin 19? (check the transponder install manual) on the transponder connector. All of Trig's glider dealers should know how to order this kit from EDMO, and hopefully they are pointing this out as well to TN72 purchasers. Some of those glider dealers who make cables are also now including wiring for that squat switch, check with your dealer if buying cables from them. If you are sure you will never fly in wave then you could use the GPS "AUTO" squat switch setting, but transmitting ground status messages when airborne is not good and may get you attention from FSDO folks watching ADS-B performance.

I'm not sure where Trig is at on this, I was hoping they might mention this in documentation, there was some discussion about maybe improving the auto GPS based algorithm. I am not sure any vendor can get this really robust with gliders (not unless you use GPS groundspeed combined with a gear down microswitch... by which time you might as well use the pitot switch), or that the testing and development hassle is worth it. To me a better approach for all involved in gliders is just to bite the bullet and use the airspeed switch if doing a 2020 Compliant install.

With the pressure switch installed and squat switch enabled in the transponder setting turn the transponder to "ALT" and conform that the LCD display then switches from "GND" to "ALT" when the IAS passes roughly mid-high 30's knots.

I'm not sure what exact a "proper" GPS antenna is, and where it is installed? Some folk doing instal are (re)discovering that GPS antenna placement for these installs is critical. I've been warning about that, Andrzej Kobus warns about it in this very thread, and he's been through this before anybody else. Everybody installing a ADS-B Out SIL=3 install needs to be *very* careful with GPS antenna install, give that antenna the best possible placement, treat the GPS antenna install as an experiments and pull FAA ADS-B reports for multiple flights where the glider is banking steeply/thermlling and see if the system looks to be performing acceptably (esp. the NIC parameter reported), and that they have also not got other things mis configured..

Lets move further setup questions to email for now.


The squat switch that seems to be necessary for a SIL=3 installation is totally new to me. If I understand correctly, the switch detects if the glider is on the ground or airborne. This seems to be a simple on-off switch connected between pin 19 and ground on the TT22. Well, I have such a switch on my retractable gear which I operate when at around 1000' AGL on tow (part of the gear-warning). Why not use that?
Herb
  #37  
Old April 1st 18, 06:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 482
Default Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 12:14:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 4:07:12 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 9:00:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:52:08 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ramy,

Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
LiFePO4, if not already done?* Room for another battery?

While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
to drive all these new fangled contraptions.* Maybe I should remove the
espresso machine from my Stemme...* Naaah...* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)

On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.

Ramy

--
Dan, 5J

Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.

Ramy

Darryl and Ramy,
I just completed installation of the TN72 with proper GPS antenna on my (updated firmware) Trig 22 for my '29. If it's not too much of a hassle, how do you configure the TT22 for ASD-B out? I understand that SIL-3 should be selected in the config screen (I'm EXPERIMENTAL). What else to look for?
Thanks,
Herb J7


Herb

First, did you install a pitot pressure "squat" switch? The TT21/TT22 can use GPS ground speed (and other inputs) to guess airborne/ground determination but it can have problems in wave flight.

For a TAB/SIL=1 install you can just set the squat switch setting in the transponder to NONE, and it will be always airborne. For a 2020 Complaint/SIL=3 install, as silly as it may be in gliders, buried in CFR 14 91.227 is the need for air/ground determination and I've been recommending people just use the pressure switch from the TN70/TT22 STC kit that is available for ~$125. The set point of those switches is around 36 knots, and its a simple SPST switch plumbed between pitot and static that is used to ground pin 19? (check the transponder install manual) on the transponder connector.. All of Trig's glider dealers should know how to order this kit from EDMO, and hopefully they are pointing this out as well to TN72 purchasers. Some of those glider dealers who make cables are also now including wiring for that squat switch, check with your dealer if buying cables from them. If you are sure you will never fly in wave then you could use the GPS "AUTO" squat switch setting, but transmitting ground status messages when airborne is not good and may get you attention from FSDO folks watching ADS-B performance.

I'm not sure where Trig is at on this, I was hoping they might mention this in documentation, there was some discussion about maybe improving the auto GPS based algorithm. I am not sure any vendor can get this really robust with gliders (not unless you use GPS groundspeed combined with a gear down microswitch... by which time you might as well use the pitot switch), or that the testing and development hassle is worth it. To me a better approach for all involved in gliders is just to bite the bullet and use the airspeed switch if doing a 2020 Compliant install.

With the pressure switch installed and squat switch enabled in the transponder setting turn the transponder to "ALT" and conform that the LCD display then switches from "GND" to "ALT" when the IAS passes roughly mid-high 30's knots.

I'm not sure what exact a "proper" GPS antenna is, and where it is installed? Some folk doing instal are (re)discovering that GPS antenna placement for these installs is critical. I've been warning about that, Andrzej Kobus warns about it in this very thread, and he's been through this before anybody else. Everybody installing a ADS-B Out SIL=3 install needs to be *very* careful with GPS antenna install, give that antenna the best possible placement, treat the GPS antenna install as an experiments and pull FAA ADS-B reports for multiple flights where the glider is banking steeply/thermlling and see if the system looks to be performing acceptably (esp. the NIC parameter reported), and that they have also not got other things mis configured..

Lets move further setup questions to email for now.


The squat switch that seems to be necessary for a SIL=3 installation is totally new to me. If I understand correctly, the switch detects if the glider is on the ground or airborne. This seems to be a simple on-off switch connected between pin 19 and ground on the TT22. Well, I have such a switch on my retractable gear which I operate when at around 1000' AGL on tow (part of the gear-warning). Why not use that?
Herb


Please don't create problems for yourself and your fellow pilots. This switch needs to operate as soon as you leave the ground. I would suggest getting the Peregrine STC as a reference and studying it, but even better it is to consult with someone who knows exactly what needs to be done. The switch that is included in the kit works quite well. I was able to order the same switch from one of the electronics distributors, unfortunately I lost the part number. Back when I was doing my installation a kit did not exist.
I am getting worried we are going to have many gliders out there with poorly installed ADS-B out systems causing issues for everyone. As Darryl said installation of the antenna is critical. You might think the system works fine when in fact it will fail as soon as you start 45 deg turns. These systems were not designed for gliders and therefore they need to be installed perfectly in order to work properly. The glider rotates very quickly and with 45 deg bank the antenna/receiver has to be able to keep track of all the satellites and keep switching rapidly. Most GA aircraft and airliners do not do these types of maneuvers. I spent a lot of money experimenting with different solutions starting with $3500 TSO-ed FreeFlight system, only to find out it was based on all circuit design and even perfectly installed it would not work properly in a glider. Please educate yourself before you start, and talk to someone who has properly working system with the same exact components and a similar glider. Use the FAA reports. If you don't get clean reports your system does not work properly. I am not using Trig's receiver so I can't help you, but if there is anyone here who does and has a clear report I would suggest following that person's installation. Lastly, based on my experience some of the TSO-ed antennas, older designs, will simply not work well enough for our purposes. If there are choices opt for the newest designs. I also found that my PF antenna was interfering with proper function of the receiver's antenna.
For others:
In a motor glider with a pylon installation of a GPS receiver antenna presents an additional problem due to the pylon obstructing some of the sky. Please when getting a report make sure you get high enough with pylon out to see if the system works properly, especially if you are far from the ground station.
  #38  
Old April 1st 18, 10:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

Installing the antenna under the instrument panel cover is not a good idea.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com
  #39  
Old April 1st 18, 11:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,131
Default Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:16:01 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
Installing the antenna under the instrument panel cover is not a good idea.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


I think it depends, what other options there are and what is in the way of a *broad* sky view from the antenna. It may well be the best install option because others might be worse.... like under the turtledeck or an external antenna somewhere on the fuselage (yuk), how good or bad those other options are going to vary a lot by glider.

Possible issues include metal bracing struts, other wires and coax, Flarm antennas, metal instrument panel parts, instruments themselves, and yes maybe even that old chestnut of interference from other GPS antennas. I notice lots of loose wires and cables flopping around under some panels... not a good idea. In some cases a useful test might be to temporarily stick the transponder antenna on top of the instrument glareshield with nothing else near it,... and see if that works OK with a test flight and FAA ADS-B report.. If that does not work then you have zero chance of working with the antenna below the panel.

Lots of behind the panel installs will require having stuff moved around to make the ADS-B GPS antenna the central antenna placed high under the glareshield, with nothing metalic in the way of a *broad* sky view. I hope this is not brain surgery, but it does require going into it with an expectation that a great antenna location/install is required, and you must pull FAA reports to know things are working OK.

2020 Compliance has stringent requirements. NIC=7 (0.2 NM) containment radius may not sound hard, but SIL=3 means 10^-7 probability of a position report being outside that radius, which makes this a challenging requirement, and requires the GPS antenna has a great broad sky view.

If folks want a quick install and can't get this to work easily with their setup then doing SIL=1 is an option to consider, you lose ATC visibility and ADS-B Out required airspace flight privileges.... and still pull a FAA report to check TABS installs. TABS has a requirement of NIC=6 (0.5 NM containment radius) and SIL=1 (10^-3 probability of being outside that radius). (FAA ADS-B reports will flag NIC=6 and SIL=1 in red, but they are fine for TABS).

And a reminder all the above is for experimental gliders with a TN72 GPS Source, anybody with a certified glider who wants 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out needs their A&P to be installing a TSO-C145c TN70 GPS. Using an STC and sending a "notice only" 337 to FAA HQ.... but hopefully *not* the normal process for a major change field approval. If your A&P is not familiar with doing an ADS-B Out install in a certified aircraft have them contact me, or an A&P or others who have been involved in doing these in gliders.

 




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