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#11
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message ... On Jul 14, 7:30 pm, Don Johnstone wrote: The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an established airport. In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction. Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can be very much shorter. Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can even bungey launch off it. That's exactly the approach taken at King Mountain Glider Park (long an HG venue). Develop the site. http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/ King Mountain Safari, Aug 17-22 Frank Whiteley Here is a GoogleEarth place mark for the King Mountain Glider Park http://www.soaridaho.com/Flights/GE/...lider_Park.kmz Wayne |
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
In article Don Johnstone writes:
At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote: No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times, even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong about that. My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the winch is - if not more so. In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site, managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that will almost always be prohibited by the owners. Tom The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an established airport. In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction. Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can be very much shorter. Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can even bungey launch off it. I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for airports, as many states here do. Before spending the money for the necessary improvements one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be followed by a cease and desist order from the local or state government. Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had appropriate insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to see proof of appropriate licensing. Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential neighbors would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and expressing their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses. The cost would be substantial. I don't know the width requirement to have parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with safe space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe places for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably too small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41 acres. I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for this, but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly. Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to pressure from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year. Creating and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult. Alan |
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
You may only need a small site for lobbing gliders onto a ridge by winch,
but remember that you still need enough space to allow for safe landing options after a launch failure. Derek Copeland At 04:14 15 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote: "Frank Whiteley" wrote in message = ... On Jul 14, 7:30 pm, Don Johnstone wrote: The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the = exception of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates = from an established airport. In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft = to operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction. Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times = the proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length = can be very much shorter. Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find = a field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing = the prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you = can launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill = you can even bungey launch off it. That's exactly the approach taken at King Mountain Glider Park (long an HG venue). Develop the site. http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/ King Mountain Safari, Aug 17-22 Frank Whiteley Here is a GoogleEarth place mark for the King Mountain Glider Park http://www.soaridaho.com/Flights/GE/...lider_Park.kmz Wayne |
#14
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
The UK requirements for an airfield are that you have to get Local
Authority Planning permission (not always easy), unless you can prove existing and continuous use, and CAA approval for winch launching to 2000 or 3000ft AGL, mostly so that this can be marked as a hazard on airmaps. This is for unlicenced airfields that don't have an official ATZ. There are some additional requirements for CAA licenced airfields including a radio station and manned air traffic control for the published opening hours. This does entitle you to an ATZ. You can also operate out of a farmers field with his permission for a very limited number of days per year. I believe the only requirements for this are to inform the local police and to post a NOTAM. The German and French model seems to be to have mixed gliding and light aircraft airfields. In the UK they are largely separate. The ones that are combined, such as Booker/Wycombe Air Park tend not to allow winch launching. A number of Service Gliding Clubs operate at active RAF airfields, but normally only at weekends and other specified days. 3500 x 300 feet would be an adequate size for a small winch launching site, but the bigger the better really. Derek Copeland At 06:26 15 July 2009, Alan wrote: I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for airports, as many states here do. Before spending the money for the necessary improvements one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be followed by a cease and desist order from the local or state government. Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had appropriate insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to see proof of appropriate licensing. Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential neighbors would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and expressing their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses. The cost would be substantial. I don't know the width requirement to have parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with safe space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe places for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably too small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41 acres. I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for this, but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly. Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to pressure from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year. Creating and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult. Alan |
#15
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
On Jul 15, 12:26*am, (Alan) wrote:
In article Don Johnstone writes: At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote: No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times, even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong about that. My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the winch is - if not more so. In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site, managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that will almost always be prohibited by the owners. Tom The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an established airport. In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction. Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can be very much shorter. Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can even bungey launch off it. * I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for airports, as many states here do. *Before spending the money for the necessary improvements one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be followed by a cease and desist order from the local or state government. * Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had appropriate insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to see proof of appropriate licensing. * Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential neighbors would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and expressing their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses. * The cost would be substantial. *I don't know the width requirement to have parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with safe space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe places for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably too small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41 acres. * I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for this, but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly. * Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to pressure from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year. *Creating and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult. * * * * Alan My experience talking to local airport managers in the US is they are desperate for more 'action' at their airports. At current fuel prices, general aviation traffic is way down. They don't really care what it is as long as they can log some takeoff and landings - to keep their jobs. Most would welcome a glider operation although there are some don't. There are many GA airports that could support a winch operation. Many have all the taxiways on one side of the runway which leaves a 10' strip of grass between the far edge of the runway and the row of edge lights - the rope can be pulled out there and be totally out of everyone's way. Gliders can be kept out of the way on a taxiway stub or on the grass until it's time to launch. The launch itself takes only about 35 - 45 seconds and the rope (not wire) doesn't "fall", it gets pulled onto the winch drum with the glider end with it's parachute falling right in front of the winch. Synthetic Spectra/Dyneema, unlike steel cable, wouldn't hurt anything if it were to fall on it anyway. There's usually room to park the winch well beyond the runway departure end in the over run area so the rope never lands on the "operations area". Airport managers have been known to temporarily remove runway end lights for a day's winch operation. Over all, a quick winch operation wouldn't need the runway and the airspace over it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. (I've seen heavy iron guys set on the runway waiting for departure clearance or maybe doing a checklist for much longer than that.) At the Fariboult, MN Municipal Airport, there was an enthusiastic crowd of airplane owners watching us. |
#16
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
I agree with Bill that a winch launch shouldn't hold up other aircraft
departures for more than a couple of minutes, and that aircraft can still land as long as they can land well short of where the cable is; they won't be able to safely do 'go-arounds' though. Our experience with synthetic cable was that it dropped more slowly, even with a tiny parachute, and drifted further sideways in a crosswind. We would wind in at about the same speed whether using steel or synthetic cable. Flying into a winch cable of either type would tend to spoil your day somewhat! Derek Copeland At 01:47 17 July 2009, bildan wrote: My experience talking to local airport managers in the US is they are desperate for more 'action' at their airports. At current fuel prices, general aviation traffic is way down. They don't really care what it is as long as they can log some takeoff and landings - to keep their jobs. Most would welcome a glider operation although there are some don't. There are many GA airports that could support a winch operation. Many have all the taxiways on one side of the runway which leaves a 10' strip of grass between the far edge of the runway and the row of edge lights - the rope can be pulled out there and be totally out of everyone's way. Gliders can be kept out of the way on a taxiway stub or on the grass until it's time to launch. The launch itself takes only about 35 - 45 seconds and the rope (not wire) doesn't "fall", it gets pulled onto the winch drum with the glider end with it's parachute falling right in front of the winch. Synthetic Spectra/Dyneema, unlike steel cable, wouldn't hurt anything if it were to fall on it anyway. There's usually room to park the winch well beyond the runway departure end in the over run area so the rope never lands on the "operations area". Airport managers have been known to temporarily remove runway end lights for a day's winch operation. Over all, a quick winch operation wouldn't need the runway and the airspace over it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. (I've seen heavy iron guys set on the runway waiting for departure clearance or maybe doing a checklist for much longer than that.) At the Fariboult, MN Municipal Airport, there was an enthusiastic crowd of airplane owners watching us. |
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
Del C wrote:
I agree with Bill that a winch launch shouldn't hold up other aircraft departures for more than a couple of minutes, and that aircraft can still land as long as they can land well short of where the cable is; they won't be able to safely do 'go-arounds' though. No, no, no. Definitely no. Just a couple of weeks ago there has been a fatality in Germany (or was it Austria?) exactly for this reason: A pilot (experienced and local, for that matter) did a go around into the winch cable. No chance. There is absolutely no other traffic allowed as long as the winch cable is in he air. Which also means: No winch launch as long as there is an airplane in the final. No problem on a not so busy airfield, on a busy place, there is some coordination and cooperation from all parties required. |
#18
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
At Lasham we still allow gliders and glider tugs to land while winch
launches are taking place, but they are unlikely to do a go-around and are situationally aware. To enable this to happen we place the winch and aerotow launch points some 500 yards in from the downwind boundary (it's a fairly large airfield), so there is plenty of room to land short. This also means that gliders can land short and taxi up to somewhere near the launch point to minimise retrieving and that tugs don't have to back taxi. We have dedicated launch point controllers to control all launches. If it looks at all likely that an aircraft is going to land long, then he will hold the launch. I accept that this would not be possible at small airfields. Derek Copeland At 09:25 17 July 2009, John Smith wrote: Del C wrote: I agree with Bill that a winch launch shouldn't hold up other aircraft departures for more than a couple of minutes, and that aircraft can still land as long as they can land well short of where the cable is; they won't be able to safely do 'go-arounds' though. No, no, no. Definitely no. Just a couple of weeks ago there has been a fatality in Germany (or was it Austria?) exactly for this reason: A pilot (experienced and local, for that matter) did a go around into the winch cable. No chance. There is absolutely no other traffic allowed as long as the winch cable is in he air. Which also means: No winch launch as long as there is an airplane in the final. No problem on a not so busy airfield, on a busy place, there is some coordination and cooperation from all parties required. |
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
I would love to see wich operations at local GA aiports but seems to me the
length required (3X the expected altitude) is a problem. Currently I fly out of a 2500 ft strip. there is amybe 500 ft pas the runway that is available to locate the winch so 1000 release height is the most I could get. Not much to find a thermal with in flat eastern noth carolina. "bildan" wrote in message ... On Jul 15, 12:26 am, (Alan) wrote: In article Don Johnstone writes: At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote: No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times, even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong about that. My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the winch is - if not more so. In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site, managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that will almost always be prohibited by the owners. Tom The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an established airport. In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction. Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can be very much shorter. Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can even bungey launch off it. I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for airports, as many states here do. Before spending the money for the necessary improvements one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be followed by a cease and desist order from the local or state government. Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had appropriate insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to see proof of appropriate licensing. Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential neighbors would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and expressing their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses. The cost would be substantial. I don't know the width requirement to have parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with safe space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe places for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably too small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41 acres. I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for this, but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly. Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to pressure from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year. Creating and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult. Alan My experience talking to local airport managers in the US is they are desperate for more 'action' at their airports. At current fuel prices, general aviation traffic is way down. They don't really care what it is as long as they can log some takeoff and landings - to keep their jobs. Most would welcome a glider operation although there are some don't. There are many GA airports that could support a winch operation. Many have all the taxiways on one side of the runway which leaves a 10' strip of grass between the far edge of the runway and the row of edge lights - the rope can be pulled out there and be totally out of everyone's way. Gliders can be kept out of the way on a taxiway stub or on the grass until it's time to launch. The launch itself takes only about 35 - 45 seconds and the rope (not wire) doesn't "fall", it gets pulled onto the winch drum with the glider end with it's parachute falling right in front of the winch. Synthetic Spectra/Dyneema, unlike steel cable, wouldn't hurt anything if it were to fall on it anyway. There's usually room to park the winch well beyond the runway departure end in the over run area so the rope never lands on the "operations area". Airport managers have been known to temporarily remove runway end lights for a day's winch operation. Over all, a quick winch operation wouldn't need the runway and the airspace over it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. (I've seen heavy iron guys set on the runway waiting for departure clearance or maybe doing a checklist for much longer than that.) At the Fariboult, MN Municipal Airport, there was an enthusiastic crowd of airplane owners watching us. |
#20
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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?
At 14:01 18 July 2009, john hawkins wrote:
I would love to see wich operations at local GA aiports but seems to me the length required (3X the expected altitude) is a problem. Currently I fly out of a 2500 ft strip. there is amybe 500 ft pas the runway that is available to locate the winch so 1000 release height is the most I could get. Not much to find a thermal with in flat eastern noth carolina. If you use a decent winch, such as a Skylaunch, and Dyneema cable you should be able to get heights of about 45% of the cable run (2500 + 500 = 3000ft) in zero headwind. That should give you about 1300ft, and even more if you can launch into a headwind. I also fly from a flat site in the UK and can usually get away from such heights (a bit more in our case as we have a longer run). You just have to look hard for thermal clues, such as other gliders circling, birds taking off, and newly forming cumulus clouds. Often the winch or the winch cable will trigger off a thermal, so it is often worth turning downwind straight off the top of the launch. This was a tip given to me by an old and very talented soaring glider pilot many years ago. This is the thermal that people always find (too low down to use) on the base leg, if they initially head off upwind! Derek Copeland |
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