Are "Popups" A Hassle?

For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
popup.

skym wrote:
: For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
: if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
: often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
: wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
: popup.

... and a corollary: If one does *NOT* do a popup, but rather files IFR and
departs VFR, how much of a hassle is it to open said flight plan mid-stream? Picking
up a flight plan filed with a different FSS for departure 3 hours earlier is not
likely to work and will degenerate into a popup.


-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

"skym" wrote in message
ups.com...

For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
popup.


Depends on how busy the controller is and how far you need to go. If
there's not much going on it's a simple matter for the controller to issue a
clearance and enter it in the computer. If he's talking to a lot of planes
at the time he may not have an opportunity to enter it in the computer. If
it's not entered it's he can't let you go beyond his airspace.

wrote in message
...

... and a corollary: If one does *NOT* do a popup, but rather files IFR
and departs VFR, how much of a hassle is it to open said flight plan
mid-stream? Picking up a flight plan filed with a different FSS for
departure
3 hours earlier is not likely to work and will degenerate into a popup.


Do you mean filing IFR from an untowered field and calling for clearance
shortly after departure? That usually works quite well as it is actually
easier for the controller.

skym wrote:
For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
popup.

I think it VERY much depends on the facility. I've talked with
controllers from several different facilities, asking a question
basically "if I want to descend through the clouds to land, would you
rather I go to FSS first, or just call you for a pop-up?" Invariably,
out here in the middle of the CONUS, the answer has been "just give us
a call - it's no more work for a pop-up than it is getting the
clearance strip through the computer."

Only once have I had a controller ask me to file with FSS first, and
that (strangely enough) was coming into El Paso, TX.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
: ... and a corollary: If one does *NOT* do a popup, but rather files IFR
: and departs VFR, how much of a hassle is it to open said flight plan
: mid-stream? Picking up a flight plan filed with a different FSS for
: departure
: 3 hours earlier is not likely to work and will degenerate into a popup.
:

: Do you mean filing IFR from an untowered field and calling for clearance
: shortly after departure? That usually works quite well as it is actually
: easier for the controller.

I'm primarily used to untowered fields, so the clearance delivery and void
time et al can be kinda a pain. It was the "shortly after departure" that I was
thinking about. Basically, planning to make the trip VFR, but filing an IFR plan in
case the weather's worse than you expected. If you're 2 hours down the road VFR
without having opened your IFR flight plan and you try to open it then and get a
clearance, it's probably been flushed from the system and is as bad as a pop-up.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...

I'm primarily used to untowered fields, so the clearance delivery and void
time et al can be kinda a pain. It was the "shortly after departure" that
I was
thinking about. Basically, planning to make the trip VFR, but filing an
IFR plan in
case the weather's worse than you expected. If you're 2 hours down the
road VFR
without having opened your IFR flight plan and you try to open it then and
get a
clearance, it's probably been flushed from the system and is as bad as a
pop-up.


Even if it's still in the system the controller working the airspace two
hours down the road from your filed departure point isn't going to have the
flight plan. And you shouldn't expect him to.

File an IFR flight plan with OTP (VFR-on-top) in the altitude block, then
convert it to a "hard altitude" when you need to. Take off and fly VFR while
enjoying the warm fuzzies of constant ATC contact.

Bob Gardner

"skym" wrote in message
ups.com...
For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
popup.

skym wrote:

For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
popup.

If it is a hassle to the controller, s/he will simply deny the request. A
couple of years ago I overheard a few different aircraft attempt to get
pop-ups when the weather began deteriorating (this happened over central
Pennsylvania). The controller, presumably very busy, denied them all. One
announced that he then had no choice but to land at the airport right below
him in order to remain VFR. However, the risk of being turned down
shouldn't deter you from trying.

In my experience, I once had a controller act noticeably perturbed when I
requested a pop-up, but he honored the request so I didn't really care that
he acted cranky; the IFR clearance got me home. Other times I used this
tool, the controller was happy to help.

And, in response to obtaining an IFR clearance on the ground or in the air
at a non-towered airport in the US, I fly weekly from an uncontrolled
airport. Unless the airport conditions are IFR, I always launch VFR then
obtain my (already filed) IFR clearance in the air.

For some reason in my case, when obtaining a clearance on the ground, ATC
will most times clear my aircraft only to the VOR located at this airport.
This makes for a high workload as I climb out, circle back over the VOR,
and contact ATC, all while student pilots fly the traffic pattern right
below.

However, obtaining the clearance in the air, I always get cleared to my
destination, so the workload and collision risk (circling at a popular VOR
used for training) are lower since I can turn to my destination first, then
contact ATC for the clearance.

--
Peter
























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: Even if it's still in the system the controller working the airspace two
: hours down the road from your filed departure point isn't going to have the
: flight plan. And you shouldn't expect him to.


That's what I was saying. Although it is pretty sad that the nationwide
system cannot keep everything together in a unified way. It's not that it's that much
data... just that the system is so old that it cannot handle it. If a couple
megabytes of memory in a GPS can handle every APT, VOR, ADF, INT for all of north
america, regular computers shouldn't have trouble.

Anyway... I'm not really bitching... honest... Just that many of the
procedures are due to limitations in the infrastructure AIUI.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************