Person claiming to be a US Navy aviator Vietnam vet

Diamond Jim wrote:
"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
ups.com...

Boomerang wrote:
Doesn't the last line of the first paragraph say "SGT, USMC"?

When I went to El Toro, MCAS on a X/C, about a hundred years
ago(actually in 1974), with my primary instructor in VT-25(Dave
McNally, foto F-4 pilot)., he introduced me to one of the last(last?)
USMC enlisted pilots. Flew 2 hole 'E'A-6Bs..very cool.


Hummmmmm? You sure about that date? The last four Marine Enlisted Pilots
(NAP's) retired at the same time on Feb 1st 1973. The last Navy Enlisted
Pilot (NAP) retired on Jan 31, 1981. The last Coast Guard one retired
sometime in 1979? I believe.

I started flying in advanced in Jan 1974..went on a X/C with him to El
Toro between that time and July, 1974...Could it have been a NFO type?.
Enlisted NFO flying in queer A-6, two holers..Altho I remember when I
started and fisnished the X/C WAS (ouch!) 32 years ago.

However they may have been a few Marines, former NAP's, that were not on
flight status, or who held commisions the retired after that. But those four
were the last Enlisted Marine Pilots that were flying. If someone wants the
names, I can contact a friend and get them. He has a copy of the ALMAR (All
Marine Message that announced their retirement).

"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
ups.com...

Diamond Jim wrote:
"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
ups.com...

Boomerang wrote:
Doesn't the last line of the first paragraph say "SGT, USMC"?

When I went to El Toro, MCAS on a X/C, about a hundred years
ago(actually in 1974), with my primary instructor in VT-25(Dave
McNally, foto F-4 pilot)., he introduced me to one of the last(last?)
USMC enlisted pilots. Flew 2 hole 'E'A-6Bs..very cool.


Hummmmmm? You sure about that date? The last four Marine Enlisted Pilots
(NAP's) retired at the same time on Feb 1st 1973. The last Navy Enlisted
Pilot (NAP) retired on Jan 31, 1981. The last Coast Guard one retired
sometime in 1979? I believe.

I started flying in advanced in Jan 1974..went on a X/C with him to El
Toro between that time and July, 1974...Could it have been a NFO type?.
Enlisted NFO flying in queer A-6, two holers..Altho I remember when I
started and fisnished the X/C WAS (ouch!) 32 years ago.

IIRC there were some enlisted Marine back seaters in the F-4's early on, but
I think that all of them eventually became LDO's or Warrants. (The Marines
needed back-seaters quickly and transioned some radar operators into the
job.

There is no telling what went in those "Queers" grin or came out of them
either. big grin. It could be very likely that some of the enlisted
electronic spooks from the Marine Radio Battalion rode in the EA-6A's, I
know they flew with their Navy spook counterparts in the EC-121
Constellations. (We will just refer to all these aircraft as generic
EC-121's even though there were many different designations used for them).
I believe these same Marine spooks were also seen in EA-3's, various
electronic A-1's, P-2/O-2 Neptunes on the USS Liberty, USS Pebulo, and on
"Red Crown" crusiers offshore of NViet. IIRC wasn't their one of these
Marine stowaways on the P-3 that was in the air-to-air fender bender with
the Chineese F-8 a few years back? There is no telling where else they hung
around at.


However they may have been a few Marines, former NAP's, that were not on
flight status, or who held commisions the retired after that. But those
four
were the last Enlisted Marine Pilots that were flying. If someone wants
the
names, I can contact a friend and get them. He has a copy of the ALMAR
(All
Marine Message that announced their retirement).

Diamond Jim wrote:
"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
ups.com...

Diamond Jim wrote:
"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
ups.com...

Boomerang wrote:
Doesn't the last line of the first paragraph say "SGT, USMC"?

When I went to El Toro, MCAS on a X/C, about a hundred years
ago(actually in 1974), with my primary instructor in VT-25(Dave
McNally, foto F-4 pilot)., he introduced me to one of the last(last?)
USMC enlisted pilots. Flew 2 hole 'E'A-6Bs..very cool.


Hummmmmm? You sure about that date? The last four Marine Enlisted Pilots
(NAP's) retired at the same time on Feb 1st 1973. The last Navy Enlisted
Pilot (NAP) retired on Jan 31, 1981. The last Coast Guard one retired
sometime in 1979? I believe.

I started flying in advanced in Jan 1974..went on a X/C with him to El
Toro between that time and July, 1974...Could it have been a NFO type?.
Enlisted NFO flying in queer A-6, two holers..Altho I remember when I
started and fisnished the X/C WAS (ouch!) 32 years ago.

IIRC there were some enlisted Marine back seaters in the F-4's early on, but
I think that all of them eventually became LDO's or Warrants. (The Marines
needed back-seaters quickly and transioned some radar operators into the
job.

There is no telling what went in those "Queers" grin or came out of them
either. big grin. It could be very likely that some of the enlisted
electronic spooks from the Marine Radio Battalion rode in the EA-6A's, I
know they flew with their Navy spook counterparts in the EC-121
Constellations. (We will just refer to all these aircraft as generic
EC-121's even though there were many different designations used for them).
I believe these same Marine spooks were also seen in EA-3's, various
electronic A-1's, P-2/O-2 Neptunes on the USS Liberty, USS Pebulo, and on
"Red Crown" crusiers offshore of NViet. IIRC wasn't their one of these
Marine stowaways on the P-3 that was in the air-to-air fender bender with
the Chineese F-8 a few years back? There is no telling where else they hung
around at.


However they may have been a few Marines, former NAP's, that were not on
flight status, or who held commisions the retired after that. But those
four
were the last Enlisted Marine Pilots that were flying. If someone wants
the
names, I can contact a friend and get them. He has a copy of the ALMAR
(All
Marine Message that announced their retirement).


Could have been dern near anything. I was the 'standard' SNA, full of
lots of ooo/aaahhhs, visiting the 'fleet', even if it was USMC. Pretty
impressed with McNally tho, along with a couple of other guys whos
names I can't remember. Another USMC A-4 driver, a USN OV-10 pilot, a
fleet USN F-4 guy who later became my CO in 2 squadrons(Rick Ludwig).

But Mike Weeks....you should really be the last person commenting on
someone pretending to be something they're not...



1)...multiple times you've fled from explaining what Kevin Brooks meant
by this post.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX
kevin brooks said this:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:...=en&lr=&ie=UTF...



"No idea, but a good point. Heck, I am still waiting for ol' Mikey to
tell me of his vast experience in dealing with "arrogant jet jockeys",

since he made such a big deal of it. Odd how he gets rather quiet when

called upon his own "qualifications"."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX





2)...your buddy, Ahron Jay Cristol (author of "The [USS] Liberty
Incident"), also seems to have trouble communicating CORRECTLY the
nature of his military service.... a pilot of a "turkey prop" is
NOT...repeat "NOT" a "fighter pilot".

Mike...was it pro-Zionist Cristol's own (intentionally?) confusing
biography of himself that led TRAINED "news media professionals" to
reflect that he was a Korean War 'fighter pilot" who flew "combat
missions" in the "far east".....???


....when IN FACT
a)..he was not a "fighter pilot" but piloted a "turkey prop"...the
navy's slowest plane
b)..he graduated from flight school 90 days before the Korean War was
over
c)...he never got within many hundreds of miles within any combat
action


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX
Who is A. Jay Cristol?


charlatan.
....A person who makes elaborate, fraudulent, and often voluble claims
to skill
or knowledge; a quack or fraud. French, from Italian ciarlatano,
probably
alteration (influenced...


Background


A. Jay Cristol is a master of the art of lying through misdirection.
His book
is a perfect example of this "talent." Without directly lying, he
arranges
facts (and omits others) in such a way as to lead a reader to a
completely
false conclusion. If challenged, he can reply that he didn't really
lie, the
error of fact only exists in the reader's mind. In addition to the
articles in
this critique which deal with the application of Cristol's special
talent to
the telling of the story of the Israeli attack on USS Liberty, it is
instructive to see how he has done the same thing to give a false
impression as
to his own background. Since there is no evidence that he has ever
sought to
correct these factual mistakes, one can only assume that they were the
intended
result of his design.


Cristol presently works as a United States Bankruptcy Judge in Miami,
Florida.
Though he styles himself as "a federal judge," this description is a
bit
misleading. He works for the federal government and is given the title
of
judge, but he is not a United States District Judge or Circuit Judge.
These
positions require Presidential appointment and Senate confirmation. Mr.

Cristol, an appointee of circuit judges, has never had his name placed
before
nor confirmed by the Senate.


Mr. Cristol writes of himself on his web site:


"In November 1951, during the Korean conflict, A. Jay Cristol joined
the US
Navy as an aviation cadet, earning his Navy Wings of Gold in April
1953. He
deployed with VS-37, a Navy anti-submarine squadron aboard the aircraft
carrier
Princeton (CV-37) to the Western Pacific and the Sea of Japan. He was
also part
of TG70.4 during February 1955, in support of evacuating Nationalist
Chinese
from the Tachen Islands near the Communist China mainland in the South
China
Sea. He flew day and night missions as both a hunter pilot flying the
Grumann
AF-2W and a killer pilot flying the Grumann AF-2S. He was subsequently
attached
to the Fleet All Weather Training Unit, Pacific at San Diego,
California as an
instrument flight instructor and taught maneuvers for the delivery of
nuclear
weapons. Upon returning to civilian life, Cristol joined the Naval Air
Reserve
where he qualified as a four-engine Navy transport plane commander. In
the
1960s, he flew operational flights during the Cuban Missile Crises and
volunteer airlift missions to Vietnam.


After 18 years as a Naval aviator, Cristol joined the Judge Advocate
General's
Corps. He graduated with distinction from Naval Justice School. He
served as a
lawyer for another twenty years. His duties included teaching law of
war and
serving as the administrative officer for the summer Naval Reserve law
courses.
In 1983, he was made an honorary professor by the Naval Justice School.
He has
performed special active duty in the office of the Secretary of the
Navy and
the Chief of Naval Operations. In the 1980s, the Department of Defense
sent him
to the International Institute of Humanitarian Law at San Remo, Italy
to
lecture on Law of Naval warfare to senior foreign military officers.
Captain
Cristol retired in 1988. He wears more than a dozen military
decorations
including the Meritorious Service Medal, the Navy Commendation Medal,
and the
Navy Achievement Medal.


In civilian life, Cristol became a lawyer and practiced civil law. He
served as
Special Assistant Attorney General of Florida during the 1959, 1961,
1963, and
1965 sessions of the Florida Legislature. In 1985, after 25 years of
law
practice, he left his position as senior partner in a firm he founded
to accept
an appointment to the federal bench. He continues to serve as Chief
Judge
Emeritus in the Southern District of Florida. He is also an adjunct
professor,
teaching at the University of Miami School of Law.


An interest in international terrorism led him to enroll in the
Graduate School
of International Studies of the University of Miami where he researched
and
wrote on terrorism. Because of his background as a navy pilot, a navy
lawyer
(JAG), a lecturer in law of naval warfare, a civil lawyer, and a
federal judge,
members of the faculty encouraged him to research and write about the
Liberty
incident. He spent ten years researching the subject and was awarded a
Ph.D. by
the University of Miami Graduate School of International Studies. His
collection of research material on this subject is considered to be the
largest
and most complete of any collection on the subject in the entire world.
After
completing his dissertation, he obtained declassification of additional

heretofore secret documents through many Freedom of Information Act
requests
and appeals. His book, The Liberty Incident, was written to update and
complete
the historical record. He has written numerous articles on law,
aviation,
history, and other subjects.


Judge Cristol remains an avid aviator. He made his first flight in a
Piper J-3
Cub on Biscayne Bay in 1945. He has personally piloted a Ford
Tri-Motor, the
Goodyear Blimp, a Soviet MiG-15, and many other unique, antique, or
historic
aircraft. In 1998, he became one of the few persons to have an airplane
named
after him when Pan Am named one of their 727 aircraft the Clipper A.
Jay
Cristol. He is a founding member of the National Museum of Naval
Aviation at
the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Florida and a founding member of
the Wings
Over Miami Military and Classic Aircraft Museum in Miami, Florida."


This autobiographic description gives the strong impression that
Cristol was a
combat pilot during the Korean War, though it does not say so
explicitly. In
fact, he graduated from flight school less than 90 days before the
Armistice
was signed. He never flew from an aircraft carrier anywhere within
striking
distance of Korea. His carrier pilot career was limited to training
missions in
the South China Sea during peacetime. Cristol has done nothing to
correct the
misimpression created by his self styled description of his "war"
career.


This misdirection through a careful choice of words has achieved his
desired
goal. Here are some quotes off Internet sites that write admiringly of
Cristol,
incorrect statements that he has never seen fit to correct.:


He says ''virulently anti-Semitic organizations'' like the Liberty
Lobby
continue to ''fan the fires'' about the Liberty to smear Israel, when
similar
friendly-fire disasters have been all but forgotten, including the 1968
Pueblo,
1975 Mayagüez and 1987 Stark incidents.


He speaks of his favorite aircraft, the Grumman Avenger -- which former

President George Bush flew in World War II -- in rhapsodic terms.


``Some enchanted evening, you look across the room and fall in love.''


Cristol left Miami Beach High School to become a Naval aviation cadet
during
the Korean War and qualified to fly off aircraft carriers. He flew
combat
missions in the Far East and participated in an airlift evacuation of
nearly
80,000 Chinese nationals from the Tachen Islands to what was then
Formosa
(Taiwan) in 1955.


He became a military flight instructor before returning to South
Florida, where
he flew briefly for Eastern Airlines, then earned undergraduate and law
degrees
from the University of Miami.


ACTIVATED TWICE


A Naval reservist, Cristol was activated during the Bay of Pigs crisis
and the
Vietnam War, during which he flew airlifts. He taught summers at the
Naval
Justice School in Newport, R.I., and practiced law until he was
appointed to
the bench in 1984. [Emphasis added]


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...al/3663371.htm


Notice that those who do not accept his version of events are not just
"anti-Semitic," but rather ''virulently anti-Semitic.'' As with many of
the
claims he makes for himself, there is absolutely no evidence to support
this
characterization of those who do not agree with him. The Miami Herald
did take
the bait he had put out and wrote "He flew combat missions in the Far
East,"
something that never happened. If Cristol ever wrote to the newspaper
to
correct their error, there is no evidence of it.


In another glowing review, this time by the American Israel Political
Action
Committee, he is described as a "combat pilot." Again, this is a
patently false
description. If Cristol ever saw combat, that fact has become a closely
guarded
secret.


Thirty-five years after that awful event, the anti-Israel slander has
at last
been debunked. A. Jay Cristol - a former U.S. Navy combat pilot and
lawyer now
serving as a federal judge in Florida - has just published his
groundbreaking
book The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy
Ship
(Brassey's, 2002), which proves conclusively that the Israeli attack
was indeed
a tragic mistake. [Emphasis added]


http://www.aipac.org/documents/settingner072902.html


AIPAC's comment shows that they know as little about Cristol as they
know about
the Israeli attack on USS Liberty - and their characterizations of both
are
equally false.


Another pro-Israeli organization describes him as a former "fighter
pilot"


"Judge A. Jay Cristol, Ph.D., was a Navy fighter pilot who served for
18 years
as a Naval aviator,"


www.camera.org:


Note that this description also speaks of Cristol's "18 years as a
Naval
aviator," which for a reservist (as Cristol was) equals about nine
months of
active duty time.


This next description is a classic. This comment relates to meetings of
the
Association of Former Intelligence Professionals.


"For AFIO, he brings in speakers like federal judge and ex-naval
intelligence
officer A. Jay Cristol, and Rear Adm. James "Jay" Carmichael, commander
of the
local Coast Guard district. Besides being a great place to pick up the
latest
spy spin and conspiracy tales, the AFIO lunches aim to bring together
the
somewhat amorphous local intelligence community. "We're generally
speaking to
the choir and they know it," Spencer admits. "It's primarily a
networking
thing." Spencer says he's got aspirations to start scholarships for
local
students who want to enter an intelligence field, and fund intelligence

programs at a local university."


http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/...l/1/index.html



Cristol's background has now morphed from that of a simple reservist
into that
of a Korean war combat fighter pilot who also happened to be a former
Naval
Intelligence office. This is not the first time that someone has
bestowed this
title on him. At a Coral Gables book signing event, the Mayor
introduced him as
a "former Naval Intelligence officer" and he simply stood there
beaming. He
made no effort whatsoever to correct the Mayor's mistake.


Analysis


As with everything else written by Cristol, you must read and parse his
claims
about himself very carefully. He never says that he was a Korean War
combat
fighter pilot; he only implies that he was. Though his use of terms
like
"Korean conflict" (which he defines as running a year longer than the
actual
war), he implies that he flew during the actual war. He speaks of
flying
"hunter" and "killer" missions off the USS Princeton. Again, this
implies
combat. In fact, he flew ASW training flights. He speaks of flying
missions off
an aircraft carrier "during the Korean conflict", yet he never came any
closer
to Korea than flying training missions thousands of miles away in the
South
China Sea - well after the Armistice had been signed.


This is important because it illustrates how he deliberately omits key
facts in
order to create a false impression in the mind of the reader. If
criticized
later, he can claim that he did not explicitly misstate anything and if
there
is confusion, it is entirely in the mind of the reader. This is a
tactic that
he uses on almost every page of The Liberty Incident.


For example, on page 43 of The Liberty Incident he tells another
whopper in an
attempt to explain and excuse the failure of the IDF pilots to identify
Liberty
while attacking:


"...Because very little time remains after firing ceases until the
aircraft
will fly into or strike a surface target, fighter and attack pilots are
told
repeatedly to fire and pull up. Most pilots including this author will
confess
that they have in fact delayed pull-up to observe their hits. .."


Again, through the skillful use of tense and phrasing, he implies,
without
actually saying so, that he is an experienced combat pilot who had
extensive
experience strafing targets. If challenged, again he can respond that
he did
not say that explicitly and it is the reader's mistake if he or she
concluded
otherwise.


He also fabricates things. Cristol claims to have conducted interviews
with
people who deny that they were ever interviewed by him, including
several
Liberty survivors. Cristol's interaction with Captain Ward Boston
provides an
excellent example of this sort of claim.


Captain Boston said that Cristol telephoned him several years ago to
discuss
the Liberty court of inquiry. Boston told Cristol that he wouldn't
talk about
anything having to do with Liberty that wasn't already public record.
This
included his personal thoughts and opinions as well as his private
conversations with Admiral Kidd and the other members of the court.
Cristol
persisted. He asked Boston about his background and a variety of other
matters,
which Boston did answer, but Boston consistently refused to discuss
anything
about Liberty that wasn't in the public record.


A few years later, Cristol wrote to Boston to tell him that he was
going to
visit Coronado (where Boston lives) and wanted to arrange to visit
Boston. In
the letter, Cristol recited a number of things that Boston purportedly
told him
in their earlier conversation. Boston said that he had told Cristol
nothing of
the sort. Cristol called Boston to confirm their meeting. Boston told
Cristol
that Cristol's understanding of the earlier conversation was
completely wrong
and that he did not say any of the things that Cristol had attributed
to him.
He also told Cristol that he would be out of town and couldn't meet
with him.


Notwithstanding any of this, Cristol still claims that he
"interviewed"
Boston twice and implies that they discussed the court of inquiry and
other
issues Boston had previously refused to discuss with anyone else. That
is
patently untrue.


When Boston spoke with Cristol the first time, he suggested that if
Cristol had
questions about the court of inquiry, he should talk with Admiral Kidd.
Cristol
then called Kidd and spoke with him. About an hour after Boston spoke
with
Cristol, Kidd called Boston. They discussed Cristol and their mutual
dislike
for him. Kidd concluded by opining that he thought Cristol was an
Israeli
agent. This is memorialized in an article published in the Washington
Report on
Middle East Affairs Magazine July/August 2003 edition, at Page 42.


Cristol claims to have made 15 trips to Israel while doing his
research. He
does not say whether he paid for these trips or someone else paid for
them.
While Cristol made an effort to talk to every Israeli who even remotely
had
anything to do with the attack on Liberty, he spoke with very few
crewmembers.


Cristol's book contains what purports to be a transcript of the air
to ground
communications between the Israeli pilots, MTBs, and controllers.
Another
Israeli, Ahron Bregman, has criticized the honestly of Cristol's
translation.
The following is from a fax sent by Bregman to the Liberty Veterans
Association:


"I understand from your letter (31 Jan 2003) that according to Dr, Jay
Cristol
the only difference between my and his interpretation of the
conversations of
the pilots before and during the attack on USS Liberty is the "tone" of
those
conversations. Yes, the tone seems to be one issue on which we
disagree, but
then the tone is very important for in these tapes the tone sometimes
makes the
music. It is sufficient to listen to the tone of Robert (here I am
using the
names used by Cristol in his book) at 1353 where he says: "What do you
say?" to
realize that, in fact, he refers to the previous suggestion of L.K.
that it
might well be that the ship is American. It seems that when it suits
him
Cristol himself refers to the tone of conversations. At 1412, according
to
Cristol, Kislev says: "Leave her!" and Cristol then adds in brackets:
"There is
a dramatic change in the tone of Kislev's voice". So here we are. The
tone is
indeed a matter that should be taken into consideration when analyzing
the
tapes.


But it seems that Cristol and me differ on substance as well. You see,
Cristol
is not a plumber, or a mechanic but rather a Judge - a Federal Judge -
and as
such his is the world of words and he fully understands - I am pretty
sure -
the meaning of words and the need to be accurate when using them. But
when it
comes to the audiotapes it seems as if Cristol no longer understands
the
importance of words and in his text there are omissions and the text
itself is
sometimes heavily edited. Here is an example (and for the sake of
accuracy I am
not even quoting from "A History of Israel" but rather straight from
the
tapes):


Cristol's version:


Bregman comments in blue between the brackets.


13:54


LK: What is that? Americans?


Shimon: What Americans?


Kislev: Robert, what did you say? [No one answers.]


Bregman's version:


13:53


LK: What is it? American?


Shimon: How do you mean, American?


Kislev: Robert, what do you say? [namely: what's your opinion and
clearly a
reference to the query just raised regarding the ship's identity - AB]


Robert: I didn't say [the tone: I don't want to know - AB]


Why did Cristol edit the text by saying that "no one answers" where in
fact
Robert does answer by saying "I didn't say" in a tone which suggests "1
don't
want to know" or "no comment"?


How about: "No one answers who had anything to say". After that, what
was
recorded? Oh..... something was left out, I see. Or could it be that
Cristol
decided to end the recording of the discourse somewhere?


Another critical moment in the audiotapes comes a bit later:


Cristol's version:


14:13


Menachem: Kislev, what country? [Menachem has become concerned.]


Kislev: Possibly American.


Bregman's version:


14:14


Menachem: Kislev, what state?


Kislev: Probably American


Menachem: What?


Kislev: Probably American.


Why did Cristol shorten this passage?? In order that the word
"American" will
not ring in our ears for too long? True, this latter passage is far
from being
a "Smoking gun", but why to edit such a critical moment in the event??"



Cristol cannot be trusted with respect to any fact he reports. He has a

timeline on his web site that he uses as a supplement to his book. On
that
timeline, among the other errors, he shows sunrise for June 8, 1967 as
occurring at Liberty's reported position at 0515. The Naval
Observatory on
line computer service shows it as occurring at 0442. Cristol can't
even be
trusted to be accurate with something as simple as the time of sunrise.



Readers should assume that ALL of his facts are incorrect. Check each
and every
one of them. Do not take on faith anything Cristol writes - ever.


Notice:
This web site offers space to authors of books that are reviewed here
to post
unedited rebuttals to the comments found in these reviews. Any author
who
wishes to post rebuttal materials need only contact the site
administrator and
arrangements will be made to post the author's complete, unedited
rebuttal.
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Diamond Jim wrote:

... IIRC wasn't their one of these
Marine stowaways on the P-3 that was in the air-to-air fender bender with
the Chineese F-8 a few years back? There is no telling where else they hung
around at.

DOD-released names of the 24-person crew included as non-USN:

Sgt. Mitchell Pray, USMC of Geneseo, Ill.

Senior Airman Curtis Towne, USAF of Hayward, Calif.

Mike Weeks wrote:
Diamond Jim wrote:

... IIRC wasn't their one of these
Marine stowaways on the P-3 that was in the air-to-air fender bender with
the Chineese F-8 a few years back? There is no telling where else they hung
around at.

DOD-released names of the 24-person crew included as non-USN:

Sgt. Mitchell Pray, USMC of Geneseo, Ill.

Senior Airman Curtis Towne, USAF of Hayward, Calif.

USAF guy must have been the cook and guy that cleaned the heads, and
kept the crew 'happy'.



...just kidding..gotta keep military humor and competition alive...

PChis-retired old Phart Phighter Phlyer