How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive an airplane crash?

I'm not sure WHERE to ask this, but, how does a wet cloth
work in an airplane crash anyway?

In step 3 at 45 seconds into this video shows it in use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXaTt...etailpage#t=49

What's the wet cloth (scientifically) doing?

On 5/15/2014 7:46 PM, Ann Marie Brest wrote:
I'm not sure WHERE to ask this, but, how does a wet cloth
work in an airplane crash anyway?

In step 3 at 45 seconds into this video shows it in use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXaTt...etailpage#t=49

What's the wet cloth (scientifically) doing?

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pil.../Smoke_Web.pdf

On Thu, 15 May 2014 20:16:19 -0400, Frank wrote:

What's the wet cloth (scientifically) doing?
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pil.../Smoke_Web.pdf

That nicely summarized FAA article explains:
- Smoke is a complex of particulate matter, invisible combustion gases & vapors suspended in the fire atmosphere.
- Inhalation of toxic gases in smoke is the primary cause of fatalities
- Carbon monoxide & hydrogen cyanide are the principal toxic combustion gases
- Carbon monoxide combines with the hemoglobin in blood and interferes with the oxygen supply to tissues
- Hydrogen cyanide inhibits oxygen utilization at the cellular level.
- Carbon dioxide is a relatively innocuous fire gas, increases respiration rate causing an increase in the uptake of other combustion gases
- Irritant gases, such as hydrogen chloride and acrolein, are generated from burning wire insulation
- Generally, carbon dioxide levels increase while oxygen concentrations decrease during fires.

And then finally, the article suggests:
- Cloth held over the nose and mouth will provide protection from smoke particulates;
- If the cloth is wet, it will also absorb most of the water-soluble gases (i.e., hydrogen cyanide & hydrogen chloride).

What's interesting is that the entire article doesn't discuss any dangers
of breathing smoke particulates, so, why it bothers to mention a dry cloth
is perplexing since we can safely assume that filtering out particulates is
merely a convenience, and not a safety issue.

So, now we're left with the a WET cloth absorbing water-soluble gases.
Of the two water-soluble gases, only hydrogen cyanide was listed in
the article as being a safety issue (the other water-soluble gas was
merely an irritant).

So, I guess we finally have the answer to "why the wet cloth?".

The WET CLOTH filters out (water soluble) hydrogen cyanide:
"Hydrogen cyanide poisoning signs & symptoms are weakness, dizziness, headache,
nausea, vomiting, coma, convulsions, & death. Death results from respiratory arrest.
Hydrogen cyanide gas acts rapidly. Symptoms & death can both occur quickly."

On Fri, 16 May 2014 03:26:21 +0000 (UTC), Ann Marie Brest
wrote:

On Thu, 15 May 2014 20:16:19 -0400, Frank wrote:

What's the wet cloth (scientifically) doing?
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pil.../Smoke_Web.pdf

That nicely summarized FAA article explains:
- Smoke is a complex of particulate matter, invisible combustion gases & vapors suspended in the fire atmosphere.
- Inhalation of toxic gases in smoke is the primary cause of fatalities
- Carbon monoxide & hydrogen cyanide are the principal toxic combustion gases
- Carbon monoxide combines with the hemoglobin in blood and interferes with the oxygen supply to tissues
- Hydrogen cyanide inhibits oxygen utilization at the cellular level.
- Carbon dioxide is a relatively innocuous fire gas, increases respiration rate causing an increase in the uptake of other combustion gases
- Irritant gases, such as hydrogen chloride and acrolein, are generated from burning wire insulation
- Generally, carbon dioxide levels increase while oxygen concentrations decrease during fires.

And then finally, the article suggests:
- Cloth held over the nose and mouth will provide protection from smoke particulates;
- If the cloth is wet, it will also absorb most of the water-soluble gases (i.e., hydrogen cyanide & hydrogen chloride).

Wow. That's good to have suggested. I certainly don't need any HCn or
HCl.

What's interesting is that the entire article doesn't discuss any dangers
of breathing smoke particulates, so, why it bothers to mention a dry cloth
is perplexing since we can safely assume that filtering out particulates is
merely a convenience,

How can we safely assume that? I'd assume the opposite.

and not a safety issue.

I think what you have is a 3-page** article where they decided to be
brief and not emphasize every problem. It's meant as advice and not a
scientific paper, so they've taken a short, clear-cut approach.

**Less than 3, given the pictures and the line spacing.

So, now we're left with the a WET cloth absorbing water-soluble gases.
Of the two water-soluble gases, only hydrogen cyanide was listed in
the article as being a safety issue (the other water-soluble gas was
merely an irritant).

Irritants irritate me. Anyhow, when HCl mixes with water it turns
into hydrocholoric acid, one of the stronger acids. I don't want that
in my lungs.


So, I guess we finally have the answer to "why the wet cloth?".

The WET CLOTH filters out (water soluble) hydrogen cyanide:
"Hydrogen cyanide poisoning signs & symptoms are weakness, dizziness, headache,
nausea, vomiting, coma, convulsions, & death. Death results from respiratory arrest.
Hydrogen cyanide gas acts rapidly. Symptoms & death can both occur quickly."

Yes, that's how they kill people in the gas chamber.

On Fri, 16 May 2014 07:34:02 -0400, micky wrote:

we can safely assume that filtering out particulates is
merely a convenience,

How can we safely assume that? I'd assume the opposite.

I also would have assumed the opposite, had I not read the
articles, which prove our assumptions invalid.

The other articles on cabin fires went into nice detail
as to how hydrogen cyanide acts as a cellular asphyxiant by
binding to mitochondrial cytochrome oxidase.

They explicitly stated that smoke particles are not
deadly in an airplane crash.

So, what you, or I, would have assumed about smoke itself
being deadly, is apparently wrong.

If you still think your (and my) initial assumption is right,
then what we need is an article about cabin fires which says
both that the smoke particles are deadly, and, that a wet
cloth reduces them.

Otherwise, we're just making non-scientific assumptions.

On Fri, 16 May 2014 06:51:56 -0700, Ann Marie Brest
wrote:

...snip...
The other articles on cabin fires went into nice detail
as to how hydrogen cyanide acts as a cellular asphyxiant by
binding to mitochondrial cytochrome oxidase.

They explicitly stated that smoke particles are not
deadly in an airplane crash.

So, what you, or I, would have assumed about smoke itself
being deadly, is apparently wrong.

If you still think your (and my) initial assumption is right,
then what we need is an article about cabin fires which says
both that the smoke particles are deadly, and, that a wet
cloth reduces them.

Otherwise, we're just making non-scientific assumptions.


Was there any mention of the radiated heat from these fires? After
personally experiencing a major fire in a building adjacent to our home, I
learned to apprecaite that aspect. For certain, a wet cloth over the head
would help shield. To see the potential shielding just envision sticking
your head into a barbecue pit with, and without, the wet towel. The air
into your lungs gets cooled so won't sear as much and at least your
corneas should remain intact.

On 5/15/2014 11:26 PM, Ann Marie Brest wrote:
On Thu, 15 May 2014 20:16:19 -0400, Frank wrote:

What's the wet cloth (scientifically) doing?
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pil.../Smoke_Web.pdf

That nicely summarized FAA article explains:
- Smoke is a complex of particulate matter, invisible combustion gases & vapors suspended in the fire atmosphere.
- Inhalation of toxic gases in smoke is the primary cause of fatalities
- Carbon monoxide & hydrogen cyanide are the principal toxic combustion gases
- Carbon monoxide combines with the hemoglobin in blood and interferes with the oxygen supply to tissues
- Hydrogen cyanide inhibits oxygen utilization at the cellular level.
- Carbon dioxide is a relatively innocuous fire gas, increases respiration rate causing an increase in the uptake of other combustion gases
- Irritant gases, such as hydrogen chloride and acrolein, are generated from burning wire insulation
- Generally, carbon dioxide levels increase while oxygen concentrations decrease during fires.

And then finally, the article suggests:
- Cloth held over the nose and mouth will provide protection from smoke particulates;
- If the cloth is wet, it will also absorb most of the water-soluble gases (i.e., hydrogen cyanide & hydrogen chloride).

What's interesting is that the entire article doesn't discuss any dangers
of breathing smoke particulates, so, why it bothers to mention a dry cloth
is perplexing since we can safely assume that filtering out particulates is
merely a convenience, and not a safety issue.

So, now we're left with the a WET cloth absorbing water-soluble gases.
Of the two water-soluble gases, only hydrogen cyanide was listed in
the article as being a safety issue (the other water-soluble gas was
merely an irritant).

So, I guess we finally have the answer to "why the wet cloth?".

The WET CLOTH filters out (water soluble) hydrogen cyanide:
"Hydrogen cyanide poisoning signs & symptoms are weakness, dizziness, headache,
nausea, vomiting, coma, convulsions, & death. Death results from respiratory arrest.
Hydrogen cyanide gas acts rapidly. Symptoms & death can both occur quickly."


If I'm in a burning about to crash plane, I think the last thing I would
worry about would be the smoke

On 17/05/14 05:00, Frank wrote:

If I'm in a burning about to crash plane, I think the last thing I would
worry about would be the smoke


As the airspeed would 'fan' the fires it would also take all the smoke
away for the few seconds you'd have to live

On 5/16/2014 12:00 PM, Frank wrote:
On 5/15/2014 11:26 PM, Ann Marie Brest wrote:
On Thu, 15 May 2014 20:16:19 -0400, Frank wrote:

What's the wet cloth (scientifically) doing?
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pil.../Smoke_Web.pdf


That nicely summarized FAA article explains:
- Smoke is a complex of particulate matter, invisible combustion gases
& vapors suspended in the fire atmosphere.
- Inhalation of toxic gases in smoke is the primary cause of fatalities
- Carbon monoxide & hydrogen cyanide are the principal toxic
combustion gases
- Carbon monoxide combines with the hemoglobin in blood and interferes
with the oxygen supply to tissues
- Hydrogen cyanide inhibits oxygen utilization at the cellular level.
- Carbon dioxide is a relatively innocuous fire gas, increases
respiration rate causing an increase in the uptake of other combustion
gases
- Irritant gases, such as hydrogen chloride and acrolein, are
generated from burning wire insulation
- Generally, carbon dioxide levels increase while oxygen
concentrations decrease during fires.

And then finally, the article suggests:
- Cloth held over the nose and mouth will provide protection from
smoke particulates;
- If the cloth is wet, it will also absorb most of the water-soluble
gases (i.e., hydrogen cyanide & hydrogen chloride).

What's interesting is that the entire article doesn't discuss any dangers
of breathing smoke particulates, so, why it bothers to mention a dry
cloth
is perplexing since we can safely assume that filtering out
particulates is
merely a convenience, and not a safety issue.

So, now we're left with the a WET cloth absorbing water-soluble gases.
Of the two water-soluble gases, only hydrogen cyanide was listed in
the article as being a safety issue (the other water-soluble gas was
merely an irritant).

So, I guess we finally have the answer to "why the wet cloth?".

The WET CLOTH filters out (water soluble) hydrogen cyanide:
"Hydrogen cyanide poisoning signs & symptoms are weakness,
dizziness, headache,
nausea, vomiting, coma, convulsions, & death. Death results from
respiratory arrest.
Hydrogen cyanide gas acts rapidly. Symptoms & death can both occur
quickly."


If I'm in a burning about to crash plane, I think the last thing I would
worry about would be the smoke

If you are the driver and can't see through the smoke, would you worry
about the smoke then or relax and resign yourself to your fate?

On 17/05/14 08:28, John S wrote:
On 5/16/2014 12:00 PM, Frank wrote:
On 5/15/2014 11:26 PM, Ann Marie Brest wrote:
On Thu, 15 May 2014 20:16:19 -0400, Frank wrote:

What's the wet cloth (scientifically) doing?
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pil.../Smoke_Web.pdf



That nicely summarized FAA article explains:
- Smoke is a complex of particulate matter, invisible combustion gases
& vapors suspended in the fire atmosphere.
- Inhalation of toxic gases in smoke is the primary cause of fatalities
- Carbon monoxide & hydrogen cyanide are the principal toxic
combustion gases
- Carbon monoxide combines with the hemoglobin in blood and interferes
with the oxygen supply to tissues
- Hydrogen cyanide inhibits oxygen utilization at the cellular level.
- Carbon dioxide is a relatively innocuous fire gas, increases
respiration rate causing an increase in the uptake of other combustion
gases
- Irritant gases, such as hydrogen chloride and acrolein, are
generated from burning wire insulation
- Generally, carbon dioxide levels increase while oxygen
concentrations decrease during fires.

And then finally, the article suggests:
- Cloth held over the nose and mouth will provide protection from
smoke particulates;
- If the cloth is wet, it will also absorb most of the water-soluble
gases (i.e., hydrogen cyanide & hydrogen chloride).

What's interesting is that the entire article doesn't discuss any
dangers
of breathing smoke particulates, so, why it bothers to mention a dry
cloth
is perplexing since we can safely assume that filtering out
particulates is
merely a convenience, and not a safety issue.

So, now we're left with the a WET cloth absorbing water-soluble gases.
Of the two water-soluble gases, only hydrogen cyanide was listed in
the article as being a safety issue (the other water-soluble gas was
merely an irritant).

So, I guess we finally have the answer to "why the wet cloth?".

The WET CLOTH filters out (water soluble) hydrogen cyanide:
"Hydrogen cyanide poisoning signs & symptoms are weakness,
dizziness, headache,
nausea, vomiting, coma, convulsions, & death. Death results from
respiratory arrest.
Hydrogen cyanide gas acts rapidly. Symptoms & death can both occur
quickly."


If I'm in a burning about to crash plane, I think the last thing I would
worry about would be the smoke

If you are the driver and can't see through the smoke, would you worry
about the smoke then or relax and resign yourself to your fate?

I believe you meant to type 'pilot' and I'd be doing everything within
my power to fly the aircraft and survive