Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

"Sport Pilot" wrote in
ups.com:

Skywise wrote:
"Sport Pilot" wrote in
news:1118415441.605435.128770 @g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Snipola
Not too dificult to be over gross withoug knowing it. Do you think
all passengers know their weight or are honest about it? Do you
think the 170 pound per person rule of thumb is very accurate? Do
you think the passengers know the weight of their baggage?

I thought we were talking about private light GA, not commercial
airlines.

You never took your friends or their luggage? My wife has never told
me how much she weighs.

First, I'm not a pilot...yet. I hope to get my license but the
opportunity just hasn't prevailed itself upon me yet.

If there is one thing I've learned in the few months that I've been
reading this newsgroup is that the pilot is ultimately responsible
for the safety of the flight. Knowing the weight of your passengers
and cargo is part of your duty as pilot in command, is it not?

I would simply explain that I must know my passengers weight in
order make sure that we have a safe flight. If need be, I'd even
try explain some of the issues that could arise from not making a
proper weight calculation. If they still seem a little embarrassed
I'd promise not to tell anyone. It's simply for the safety of the
flight.

I would hate to think knowing all this a person would be so vain
that they would willingly choose weight over safety.


But even so, that's even more reason to be sure you don't break the
rules because you have a responsibility to others lives. If someone
wants to bend/break the rules at the risk of their own life, fine, be
a darwin award candidate. We dont' need them in the gene pool. But
don't risk other's lives while you're at it.

As I said anyone could break the rule and not even know it.
Snipola

There's always going to be things that can happen that are beyond ones
control, but that's no excuse for CHOOSING to ignore something that has
an affect on flight safety. Perhaps having an exact weight is not as
critical for a large airliner but is it not potentially critical for
something small like a 170?

As I said, better safe than sorry. Flying isn't like driving. You
can't just pull over in the sky to fix something that goes wrong.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Blog: http://www.skywise711.com/Blog

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

Skywise wrote:
"Sport Pilot" wrote in
ups.com:

Skywise wrote:
"Sport Pilot" wrote in
news:1118415441.605435.128770 @g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Snipola
Not too dificult to be over gross withoug knowing it. Do you think
all passengers know their weight or are honest about it? Do you
think the 170 pound per person rule of thumb is very accurate? Do
you think the passengers know the weight of their baggage?

I thought we were talking about private light GA, not commercial
airlines.

You never took your friends or their luggage? My wife has never told
me how much she weighs.

First, I'm not a pilot...yet. I hope to get my license but the
opportunity just hasn't prevailed itself upon me yet.

If there is one thing I've learned in the few months that I've been
reading this newsgroup is that the pilot is ultimately responsible
for the safety of the flight. Knowing the weight of your passengers
and cargo is part of your duty as pilot in command, is it not?

I would simply explain that I must know my passengers weight in
order make sure that we have a safe flight. If need be, I'd even
try explain some of the issues that could arise from not making a
proper weight calculation. If they still seem a little embarrassed
I'd promise not to tell anyone. It's simply for the safety of the
flight.

I would hate to think knowing all this a person would be so vain
that they would willingly choose weight over safety.


But even so, that's even more reason to be sure you don't break the
rules because you have a responsibility to others lives. If someone
wants to bend/break the rules at the risk of their own life, fine, be
a darwin award candidate. We dont' need them in the gene pool. But
don't risk other's lives while you're at it.

As I said anyone could break the rule and not even know it.
Snipola

There's always going to be things that can happen that are beyond ones
control, but that's no excuse for CHOOSING to ignore something that has
an affect on flight safety. Perhaps having an exact weight is not as
critical for a large airliner but is it not potentially critical for
something small like a 170?

As I said, better safe than sorry. Flying isn't like driving. You
can't just pull over in the sky to fix something that goes wrong.


Refreshing post.
Keep thinking like that.
The rules are not there just to give the printer a job

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
Dave Stadt wrote:
I hope to never fall into that trap. Single engine, single pilot IFR in the
clag is not my definition of reliable or desirable transportation. Anything
beyond that means you are mostly a button pushing knob twisting passenger.
Not much brain activity required and horribly boring.


BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Spoken as a true know-nothing. If there's one thing single
pilot IFR isn't, it's boring. You're not flying in a video game; you're flying
in real weather.

I hate to be harsh but your statements bring it out of me.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE


I started the first steps toward getting an IFR rating more than 15
years ago. Took the ground school, was bored to death, but certainly
takes some smarts. Flew in the back seat of a Piper Arrow to Oshkosh
IFR with some friends a short time later. One leg was through some
clouds with a few horizontal lightening bolts. Hit my head on the
ceiling a few times. The pilots did ok but I was a wreck nontheless.
After that I resolved to never fly IFR in a light plane.

Later, I think it was Aviation Consumer, showed statics that GA IFR
flying was slightly safer than a motorcycle, and VFR flying slightly
less safe than an automobile.

Skywise wrote:

Knowing the weight of your passengers
and cargo is part of your duty as pilot in command, is it not?

Not necessarily. Knowing that the aircraft is at or below MGW and within the
envelope is part of your duty as PIC. If you have enough passengers and luggage
to be close to MGW, then, yes, you need to know the weights. If not, you don't.

For example, my Maule would carry 560 pounds with full tanks. Going up with a
single passenger, I never had to ask that person what they weighed. I simply
don't know people who weigh well over 350 pounds. I know that putting more than
210 pounds in the back seat will put me out of the envelope. If the EAA brings
me two typical 10 year olds, I know I can put them in the back seat with no
problems for a Young Eagles flight, and I can tell that by looking at them.

The only time I needed to know exact weights were when I took my family on
vacations.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

George Patterson wrote in
news:QJFre.5835$fa3.83@trndny01:

Skywise wrote:

Knowing the weight of your passengers
and cargo is part of your duty as pilot in command, is it not?

Not necessarily. Knowing that the aircraft is at or below MGW and within
the envelope is part of your duty as PIC. If you have enough passengers
and luggage to be close to MGW, then, yes, you need to know the weights.
If not, you don't.

For example, my Maule would carry 560 pounds with full tanks. Going up
with a single passenger, I never had to ask that person what they
weighed. I simply don't know people who weigh well over 350 pounds. I
know that putting more than 210 pounds in the back seat will put me out
of the envelope. If the EAA brings me two typical 10 year olds, I know I
can put them in the back seat with no problems for a Young Eagles
flight, and I can tell that by looking at them.

The only time I needed to know exact weights were when I took my family
on vacations.

George Patterson

I agree with you completely. There are obviously times when knowing
an exact weight is not necessary, but you are still giving the
weight consideration.

Then there are times when knowing exact weights are important.

You are obviously smart enough to know the difference. I was
getting the impression from some posters that they aren't.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Blog: http://www.skywise711.com/Blog

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

Sport Pilot wrote:
I started the first steps toward getting an IFR rating more than 15
years ago. Took the ground school, was bored to death, but certainly
takes some smarts. Flew in the back seat of a Piper Arrow to Oshkosh
IFR with some friends a short time later. One leg was through some
clouds with a few horizontal lightening bolts. Hit my head on the
ceiling a few times. The pilots did ok but I was a wreck nontheless.
After that I resolved to never fly IFR in a light plane.


If you'd been the pilot you might have done better. I think it's the feeling of
lack of control that makes people not enjoy the experience. I know as a pilot,
I've never enjoyed those few moments my aircraft has been out of control in
convective events. There is a similar reaction in the car when somebody goes
around curves a little too fast... the driver doesn't mind but the passenger
does. No control. It makes you press your foot to the floor as if there were a
brake pedal there.

All that being said, it's a pity you never had a chance to fly a "good" IFR trip
before you decided you didn't like it: take off into a stratus layer, enjoy a
silky smooth flight followed by an instrument letdown down to maybe 400 feet...
low enough to be a challenge but not so low that you don't know whether you're
going to get in or not.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
Sport Pilot wrote:
I started the first steps toward getting an IFR rating more than 15
years ago. Took the ground school, was bored to death, but certainly
takes some smarts. Flew in the back seat of a Piper Arrow to Oshkosh
IFR with some friends a short time later. One leg was through some
clouds with a few horizontal lightening bolts. Hit my head on the
ceiling a few times. The pilots did ok but I was a wreck nontheless.
After that I resolved to never fly IFR in a light plane.


If you'd been the pilot you might have done better. I think it's the feeling of
lack of control that makes people not enjoy the experience. I know as a pilot,
I've never enjoyed those few moments my aircraft has been out of control in
convective events. There is a similar reaction in the car when somebody goes
around curves a little too fast... the driver doesn't mind but the passenger
does. No control. It makes you press your foot to the floor as if there were a
brake pedal there.

All that being said, it's a pity you never had a chance to fly a "good" IFR trip
before you decided you didn't like it: take off into a stratus layer, enjoy a
silky smooth flight followed by an instrument letdown down to maybe 400 feet...
low enough to be a challenge but not so low that you don't know whether you're
going to get in or not.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

It's not just the experiance. I decided that flying by small plane is
such a poor and dangerous form of transportation, that from now on I
will just fly for fun, aka my screen name, which has nothing to do with
the newer sport catagory.

Skywise wrote:
George Patterson wrote in
news:QJFre.5835$fa3.83@trndny01:

Skywise wrote:

Knowing the weight of your passengers
and cargo is part of your duty as pilot in command, is it not?

Not necessarily. Knowing that the aircraft is at or below MGW and within
the envelope is part of your duty as PIC. If you have enough passengers
and luggage to be close to MGW, then, yes, you need to know the weights.
If not, you don't.

For example, my Maule would carry 560 pounds with full tanks. Going up
with a single passenger, I never had to ask that person what they
weighed. I simply don't know people who weigh well over 350 pounds. I
know that putting more than 210 pounds in the back seat will put me out
of the envelope. If the EAA brings me two typical 10 year olds, I know I
can put them in the back seat with no problems for a Young Eagles
flight, and I can tell that by looking at them.

The only time I needed to know exact weights were when I took my family
on vacations.

George Patterson

I agree with you completely. There are obviously times when knowing
an exact weight is not necessary, but you are still giving the
weight consideration.

Then there are times when knowing exact weights are important.

You are obviously smart enough to know the difference. I was
getting the impression from some posters that they aren't.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Blog: http://www.skywise711.com/Blog

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?


Using 170 pounds per person is supposed to be a legit method of
estimating the weight. Even the FAA doesn't expect you to carry a
scale and weigh the passengers and cargo. Esitmating is supposed to be
legit. So you could underestimate and be over the gross weight.

Sport Pilot wrote:
Using 170 pounds per person is supposed to be a legit method of
estimating the weight. Even the FAA doesn't expect you to carry a
scale and weigh the passengers and cargo. Esitmating is supposed to be
legit. So you could underestimate and be over the gross weight.


It's been my experience most aircraft are more sensitive to balance than weight.
Some aircraft are famous for their carrying ability... the Cherokee Six, Cessna
C-182, and Cessna C-210 come to mind. Supposedly they'll fly if you can get the
doors shut. I know for a fact that the Cherokee Six and the C-210 will carry
six people, full fuel , dive gear (less tanks) and baggage for a four day stay.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"Sport Pilot" wrote in
ps.com:

Snipola
It's not just the experiance. I decided that flying by small plane is
such a poor and dangerous form of transportation, that from now on I
will just fly for fun, aka my screen name, which has nothing to do with
the newer sport catagory.

I gotta ask, do you still drive a car?

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Blog: http://www.skywise711.com/Blog

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?