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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?



 
 
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  #31  
Old October 29th 05, 10:05 AM
David Cartwright
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
I know that the whole idea of the hierarchic structure involved was that
the controller should trust that the established and approved workflow was
reasonable.


The person doing the job who must have the final say as to whether they feel
they can do the job satisfactorily.

In this situation, some of the equipment in the ATC facility was out of
action. Not enough, by all accounts, necessarily to make it dangerous to
work the facility, but some. It would be perfectly reasonable for someone
who was comfortable working a fully staffed facility with normal levels of
functioning equipment to say, in the event of staffing/equipment shortages:
"Sorry, I just don't feel I can provide a safe service in this set of
circumstances".

The hierarchic structure is not there to allow the guy on the ground to
trust that everything will be OK. In this case it's there to solve the
problem of someone saying: "Sorry guys, I can't operate this as I don't
think I can do so safely".

D.


  #32  
Old October 29th 05, 04:09 PM
Gord Beaman
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

"David Cartwright" wrote:

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
.. .
Correction...I should have said "The Russian PIC wasn't well
informed..."
The Russian copilot wanted to comply with the RA I gathered but
apparently the PIC over-rode him...that was my read anyway...


From the programme I saw on Channel 5 about the incident (which was, perhaps
surprisingly, well compiled and quite balanced) there was certainly a high
level of disagreement between the PIC and his colleague over whether to obey
TCAS or ATC.

D.

Yes, some of the particulars of an air incident certainly don't
get well portrayed when the media or a film making endeavour is
involved do they?...did you ever see he movie made of the Air
Canada incident where a 767 ran out of fuel?...my lord that was
the most sickening flying movie that I've ever seen in my life,
(and I've seen a bunch).
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)
  #33  
Old October 29th 05, 04:22 PM
Gord Beaman
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

"David Cartwright" wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...
If somebody is given a task which is impossible to accomplish, then who
is to blame? The one who failed or the one who gave him the task?

The controller was not given a task that was impossible to accomplish.


Very few tasks are absolutely impossible to accomplish. Whether something is
possible for a particular person with particular skills to accomplish in a
particular situation is another thing entirely. The aviation industry goes
to great pains to take note of the human factors involved in what goes on,
and this entire incident is (very sadly) an excellent example of how a
combination of (often unrelated) human factors issues can combine to cause
loss of life.

D.

Luckily so..and caused by a lot of study, think tanks and
training in this very very responsible occupation. I don't think
that controllers are making enough money to compensate them
properly for their responsibility.

One get's a huge shot of respect for them when one's entering a
very busy ATC section in zero zero conditions and listen to them
handling many many flights very rapidly...you sure hang onto
every word they speak and the 'tone of voice' it's given in.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)
  #34  
Old October 29th 05, 05:23 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...

I don't think that controllers are making enough money to compensate them
properly for their responsibility.


You're absolutely right.


  #35  
Old October 29th 05, 08:05 PM
Stefan
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

David Cartwright wrote:

The hierarchic structure is not there to allow the guy on the ground to
trust that everything will be OK. In this case it's there to solve the
problem of someone saying: "Sorry guys, I can't operate this as I don't
think I can do so safely".


You're absolutely correct. But then, there's such a thing which we call
in German "corporate culture" (translated, I don't know if this is the
correct term in English). You grow up and live in a certain corporate
culture and it's very difficult if not impossible to resist. It's the
responsibility of the managers to create a safe corporate culture. In
this case, one man operations at two workstations at night were SOP.
It's asking very much to second guess the SOP.

Stefan
  #36  
Old October 29th 05, 08:46 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?


"Stefan" wrote in message
...

You're absolutely correct. But then, there's such a thing which we call in
German "corporate culture" (translated, I don't know if this is the
correct term in English). You grow up and live in a certain corporate
culture and it's very difficult if not impossible to resist. It's the
responsibility of the managers to create a safe corporate culture. In this
case, one man operations at two workstations at night were SOP. It's
asking very much to second guess the SOP.


What's wrong with one-man operations during light traffic periods at what
would normally be two work stations? In the US you can find half a dozen
sectors combined and worked by one man during the night.


  #37  
Old October 29th 05, 09:53 PM
Peter Clark
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:46:21 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Stefan" wrote in message
...

You're absolutely correct. But then, there's such a thing which we call in
German "corporate culture" (translated, I don't know if this is the
correct term in English). You grow up and live in a certain corporate
culture and it's very difficult if not impossible to resist. It's the
responsibility of the managers to create a safe corporate culture. In this
case, one man operations at two workstations at night were SOP. It's
asking very much to second guess the SOP.


What's wrong with one-man operations during light traffic periods at what
would normally be two work stations? In the US you can find half a dozen
sectors combined and worked by one man during the night.


Are they combined on the same scope, or does the controller have to
physically roll the chair up and down the stations to see all the
screens covering their sectors? If memory serves, in this incident
the screens were separate, the controller was looking at another
screen dealing with something there, and by the time he got back to
this station the aircraft were already well within the lateral
distance which would have caused the alerting system to activate, if
it wasn't INOP.
  #38  
Old October 30th 05, 01:07 AM
Ginny Ginny is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Oct 2005
Location: Saigon
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent p. norris
I think I heard on radio news that a man whose wife and child were
killed in a plane crash stabbed the controller who was blamed for the
accident.

Did I hear correctly? Can anyone post details?

Thanks. vince norris
Yes, that's true. The man lost his wife and children in a mid-air plane collision near German/Swiss border. He killed the controller who made the mistake. And se was sentenced for 8 years. he trial was last week.
  #39  
Old October 30th 05, 06:10 AM
Brian Whatcott
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 15:22:04 GMT, Gord Beaman
wrote:
/// I don't think
that controllers are making enough money to compensate them
properly for their responsibility.

///

Let's see, what does a center controller make currently?
A hundred grand? More?
About as much as a (US) pharmaceutical dispenser
I guess? A third as much as a physician?
A fifth as much as an anesthesiologist?

Brian Whatcott Altusa OK
  #40  
Old October 30th 05, 07:05 AM
Sylvain
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

Brian Whatcott wrote:
I guess? A third as much as a physician?
A fifth as much as an anesthesiologist?


yet, a bad physician or anesthesiologist generally
only kills one patient at a time...

--Sylvain
 




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