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My Ground Loop



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 29th 05, 03:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default My Ground Loop

I have heard it said that there are two types of tailwheel pilots: those
that have ground looped and those that will. A week ago, I graduated from
the latter category into the former category. There was no shirt ripping
ceremony for this milestone. Fortunately, there was also no torn flesh or
bent metal. I post the story here so others can share my lessons learned.

The background: My Piper PA-16 Clipper has been down since April for an
engine overhaul (a story in itself). I had flown the plane about three hours
since the overhaul, including four landings, all into a strong wind directly
down the runway. I took some advice to change my landing technique and carry
some power through the flare instead of cutting power as soon as I had the
runway made. This had worked pretty well for those four landings. I needed
to fly the airplane to an airport near my parent's in order to store it in
my father's hangar for the winter. That airport has an East/West runway, and
we had been having strong Southerly winds lately, so I waited for a day with
more favorable winds to make the trip. Finally, the winds were 15 mph from
the west, so I went for it. The airport has a 2600 ft asphalt runway with
obstuctions at each end. My usual airstrip is 1800 ft with obstructions, so
I didn't consider the runway marginal. My 9 yr old son wanted to come along
since he hadn't had a chance to fly with me all year.

The sequence: The ceiling was lowering as we got closer. It wasn't quite bad
enough to turn around, but I was glad to get to the destination. Some of my
worst landings have come with the "glad to finally be here" mindset, which
should have been a warning. I didn't get slowed to pattern airspeed until
downwind leg. On final, I noticed I was about 10 mph faster than target and
made a mental note to get the speed down. About the same time, I noticed
that I had a significant crab angle indicating a crosswind from the left. I
focused my attention on setting up a slip to correct for the crosswind. I
made a wheel landing close to the intended spot, left wheel first. So far,
so good. I focused my attention on keeping it pointed straight and waited to
start braking until my right wheel came down, which seemed to take longer
than expected. I also decided that I needed to get the tailwheel down so I
would have tailwheel steering to help with the crosswind. When I started to
brake, the plane got squirelly in a hurry. Some dancing on the pedals kept
it on the pavement. Suddenly, I realized that I might not have space to get
stopped before the end of the runway. Just off that end of the runway is a
busy road. I decided to take my chances with the weeds off the left side of
the runway. I picked a spot between two runway lights and headed for the
side. It turned much sharper than I would have chosen and I ended up going
between a different set of runway lights than planned. As I slowed down in
the weeds, I gave it some throttle to avoid coming to a stop and steered
back onto the runway.

My son thought the whole thing was pretty cool and loves to tell everyone we
know all about it. I hated to end my flying season with a landing like that,
but there was no way I was going around the pattern until I had a chance to
thoroughly inspect for any damage. The only things I found out of place were
some weeds in places that weeds don't grow.

This wasn't the usual "loss of directional control" ground loop scenario,
although directional control was marginal at points. I classify it as a
ground loop because once I started toward the edge of the runway, the turn
accelerated on its own. When I replay the sequence in my head, I don't have
any trouble coming up with a list of mistakes I made along the way:
1) I should have anticipated the crosswind and not been surprised by it on
final. The wind was 250 at 15mph which is not exactly west. Runway 29 is not
exactly west either. Put those together and there is a pretty good crosswind
component. I had computed the crosswind component with wishful thinking as
opposed to trigonometry.
2) Obviously, airspeed control was an issue. I wasn't at pattern speed
before entering the pattern and I never quite caught up. After I noticed the
speed was high on final, I got distracted by the crosswind and didn't get it
corrected.
3) Did I pull the power to idle after touchdown? I don't specifically
remember doing that. It is such an automatic thing that I might not
specifically remember it. The fact that the plane did not slow down like it
usually would makes me suspicious that I was still carrying some power.
Since I had to jockey the throttle around to get out of the weeds, I
couldn't look at the tach afterwards to tell.
4) I didn't recognize the potential for an overrun in time to make a
go-around. Once I touched down at the correct point and knew the runway was
long enough, I presumed I was ok. Since it was a wheel landing, touching
down did not imply normal touchdown speed. I was too focused on directional
control to notice the speed issue in a timely manner.

This incident reminds me of the trouble I had with crosswind landings as a
student pilot. I never screwed up the crosswind correction itself, but it
seemed to distract me from something else and I would botch the landing some
other way.

The only thing I have found to pat myself on the back for is the fact that I
never allowed myself to become a passenger. I kept flying the airplane until
I got it stopped on the runway (facing the wrong way and with a load of
weeds, but on the runway).


  #2  
Old November 29th 05, 04:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default My Ground Loop

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:34:12 -0500, "Reid & Julie Baldwin"
wrote:

I took some advice to change my landing technique and carry
some power through the flare instead of cutting power as soon as I had the
runway made.



Thanks for the story. I hope you're re-thinking the above advice at
this point. Carrying power into the flare isn't necessary, extends
your landing distance, and can get you in trouble as you found out.
Also in x-wind conditions like you describe, a three point landing is
a better idea in my opinion. You talked about wanting to get the tail
wheel down so you had steering. If you did a full stall landing, you
would have had the controllability you were looking for as soon as you
touched the ground, as well as having better control of the airplane
while it was flying. You also would have been slower than what's
needed for a wheel landing which may have allowed you to avoid the
problems you had completely.

It's great you stuck with it and I'm glad it all worked out. Hope its
a mild winter so you get to exercise the bird some.

z
  #3  
Old November 29th 05, 04:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: n/a
Default My Ground Loop


Reid & Julie Baldwin wrote:
I have heard it said that there are two types of tailwheel pilots: those
that have ground looped and those that will. A week ago, I graduated from
the latter category into the former category. There was no shirt ripping
ceremony for this milestone. Fortunately, there was also no torn flesh or
bent metal. I post the story here so others can share my lessons learned.


***********************
It appears you learned more in that experience than 15 years of ho-hum
flying and take offs/landings! Good for you that you learned so much
from it. I doubt you'll repeat the mistakes.
Using your power and wheel landings is nearly a whole new art form
these days but is a technique we used in crop dusting for years and
seldom ever went much past a short field landing roll. For us, time was
money and we didn't make any sitting on the ground!
If you can find an old ag pilot who is also a CFI, or is willing to fly
with you and try to show you some of the tricks that we learn in
countless landings it would be worthwhile.
You certainly sound like a mature and level headed pilot so I'm sure
you have already given something similar some good thought?
Geeez I haven't flown a Clipper since...hmmm lemme see now.....must be
close to 40 years or so? 1967-68?
Cheers and Happy Holidays
Ol Shy & Bashful

The background: My Piper PA-16 Clipper has been down since April for an
engine overhaul (a story in itself). I had flown the plane about three hours
since the overhaul, including four landings, all into a strong wind directly
down the runway. I took some advice to change my landing technique and carry
some power through the flare instead of cutting power as soon as I had the
runway made. This had worked pretty well for those four landings. I needed
to fly the airplane to an airport near my parent's in order to store it in
my father's hangar for the winter. That airport has an East/West runway, and
we had been having strong Southerly winds lately, so I waited for a day with
more favorable winds to make the trip. Finally, the winds were 15 mph from
the west, so I went for it. The airport has a 2600 ft asphalt runway with
obstuctions at each end. My usual airstrip is 1800 ft with obstructions, so
I didn't consider the runway marginal. My 9 yr old son wanted to come along
since he hadn't had a chance to fly with me all year.

The sequence: The ceiling was lowering as we got closer. It wasn't quite bad
enough to turn around, but I was glad to get to the destination. Some of my
worst landings have come with the "glad to finally be here" mindset, which
should have been a warning. I didn't get slowed to pattern airspeed until
downwind leg. On final, I noticed I was about 10 mph faster than target and
made a mental note to get the speed down. About the same time, I noticed
that I had a significant crab angle indicating a crosswind from the left. I
focused my attention on setting up a slip to correct for the crosswind. I
made a wheel landing close to the intended spot, left wheel first. So far,
so good. I focused my attention on keeping it pointed straight and waited to
start braking until my right wheel came down, which seemed to take longer
than expected. I also decided that I needed to get the tailwheel down so I
would have tailwheel steering to help with the crosswind. When I started to
brake, the plane got squirelly in a hurry. Some dancing on the pedals kept
it on the pavement. Suddenly, I realized that I might not have space to get
stopped before the end of the runway. Just off that end of the runway is a
busy road. I decided to take my chances with the weeds off the left side of
the runway. I picked a spot between two runway lights and headed for the
side. It turned much sharper than I would have chosen and I ended up going
between a different set of runway lights than planned. As I slowed down in
the weeds, I gave it some throttle to avoid coming to a stop and steered
back onto the runway.

My son thought the whole thing was pretty cool and loves to tell everyone we
know all about it. I hated to end my flying season with a landing like that,
but there was no way I was going around the pattern until I had a chance to
thoroughly inspect for any damage. The only things I found out of place were
some weeds in places that weeds don't grow.

This wasn't the usual "loss of directional control" ground loop scenario,
although directional control was marginal at points. I classify it as a
ground loop because once I started toward the edge of the runway, the turn
accelerated on its own. When I replay the sequence in my head, I don't have
any trouble coming up with a list of mistakes I made along the way:
1) I should have anticipated the crosswind and not been surprised by it on
final. The wind was 250 at 15mph which is not exactly west. Runway 29 is not
exactly west either. Put those together and there is a pretty good crosswind
component. I had computed the crosswind component with wishful thinking as
opposed to trigonometry.
2) Obviously, airspeed control was an issue. I wasn't at pattern speed
before entering the pattern and I never quite caught up. After I noticed the
speed was high on final, I got distracted by the crosswind and didn't get it
corrected.
3) Did I pull the power to idle after touchdown? I don't specifically
remember doing that. It is such an automatic thing that I might not
specifically remember it. The fact that the plane did not slow down like it
usually would makes me suspicious that I was still carrying some power.
Since I had to jockey the throttle around to get out of the weeds, I
couldn't look at the tach afterwards to tell.
4) I didn't recognize the potential for an overrun in time to make a
go-around. Once I touched down at the correct point and knew the runway was
long enough, I presumed I was ok. Since it was a wheel landing, touching
down did not imply normal touchdown speed. I was too focused on directional
control to notice the speed issue in a timely manner.

This incident reminds me of the trouble I had with crosswind landings as a
student pilot. I never screwed up the crosswind correction itself, but it
seemed to distract me from something else and I would botch the landing some
other way.

The only thing I have found to pat myself on the back for is the fact that I
never allowed myself to become a passenger. I kept flying the airplane until
I got it stopped on the runway (facing the wrong way and with a load of
weeds, but on the runway).


  #4  
Old November 29th 05, 06:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: n/a
Default My Ground Loop

I'm a wannabe pilot, so I don't know beans about the technicalities you
discussed. But I know an honest man willing to describe his own mistakes
and learn from them, and I both respect and applaud your candor here.
Thanks, and fair winds to you. (I DO know a bit about sailing, and fair
winds I suspect are appreciated by fliers, too.)

Cheers,

Dick Behan



"Reid & Julie Baldwin" wrote in message
...
I have heard it said that there are two types of tailwheel pilots: those
that have ground looped and those that will. A week ago, I graduated from
the latter category into the former category. There was no shirt ripping
ceremony for this milestone. Fortunately, there was also no torn flesh or
bent metal. I post the story here so others can share my lessons learned.

The background: My Piper PA-16 Clipper has been down since April for an
engine overhaul (a story in itself). I had flown the plane about three
hours since the overhaul, including four landings, all into a strong wind
directly down the runway. I took some advice to change my landing
technique and carry some power through the flare instead of cutting power
as soon as I had the runway made. This had worked pretty well for those
four landings. I needed to fly the airplane to an airport near my parent's
in order to store it in my father's hangar for the winter. That airport
has an East/West runway, and we had been having strong Southerly winds
lately, so I waited for a day with more favorable winds to make the trip.
Finally, the winds were 15 mph from the west, so I went for it. The
airport has a 2600 ft asphalt runway with obstuctions at each end. My
usual airstrip is 1800 ft with obstructions, so I didn't consider the
runway marginal. My 9 yr old son wanted to come along since he hadn't had
a chance to fly with me all year.

The sequence: The ceiling was lowering as we got closer. It wasn't quite
bad enough to turn around, but I was glad to get to the destination. Some
of my worst landings have come with the "glad to finally be here" mindset,
which should have been a warning. I didn't get slowed to pattern airspeed
until downwind leg. On final, I noticed I was about 10 mph faster than
target and made a mental note to get the speed down. About the same time,
I noticed that I had a significant crab angle indicating a crosswind from
the left. I focused my attention on setting up a slip to correct for the
crosswind. I made a wheel landing close to the intended spot, left wheel
first. So far, so good. I focused my attention on keeping it pointed
straight and waited to start braking until my right wheel came down, which
seemed to take longer than expected. I also decided that I needed to get
the tailwheel down so I would have tailwheel steering to help with the
crosswind. When I started to brake, the plane got squirelly in a hurry.
Some dancing on the pedals kept it on the pavement. Suddenly, I realized
that I might not have space to get stopped before the end of the runway.
Just off that end of the runway is a busy road. I decided to take my
chances with the weeds off the left side of the runway. I picked a spot
between two runway lights and headed for the side. It turned much sharper
than I would have chosen and I ended up going between a different set of
runway lights than planned. As I slowed down in the weeds, I gave it some
throttle to avoid coming to a stop and steered back onto the runway.

My son thought the whole thing was pretty cool and loves to tell everyone
we know all about it. I hated to end my flying season with a landing like
that, but there was no way I was going around the pattern until I had a
chance to thoroughly inspect for any damage. The only things I found out
of place were some weeds in places that weeds don't grow.

This wasn't the usual "loss of directional control" ground loop scenario,
although directional control was marginal at points. I classify it as a
ground loop because once I started toward the edge of the runway, the turn
accelerated on its own. When I replay the sequence in my head, I don't
have any trouble coming up with a list of mistakes I made along the way:
1) I should have anticipated the crosswind and not been surprised by it on
final. The wind was 250 at 15mph which is not exactly west. Runway 29 is
not exactly west either. Put those together and there is a pretty good
crosswind component. I had computed the crosswind component with wishful
thinking as opposed to trigonometry.
2) Obviously, airspeed control was an issue. I wasn't at pattern speed
before entering the pattern and I never quite caught up. After I noticed
the speed was high on final, I got distracted by the crosswind and didn't
get it corrected.
3) Did I pull the power to idle after touchdown? I don't specifically
remember doing that. It is such an automatic thing that I might not
specifically remember it. The fact that the plane did not slow down like
it usually would makes me suspicious that I was still carrying some power.
Since I had to jockey the throttle around to get out of the weeds, I
couldn't look at the tach afterwards to tell.
4) I didn't recognize the potential for an overrun in time to make a
go-around. Once I touched down at the correct point and knew the runway
was long enough, I presumed I was ok. Since it was a wheel landing,
touching down did not imply normal touchdown speed. I was too focused on
directional control to notice the speed issue in a timely manner.

This incident reminds me of the trouble I had with crosswind landings as a
student pilot. I never screwed up the crosswind correction itself, but it
seemed to distract me from something else and I would botch the landing
some other way.

The only thing I have found to pat myself on the back for is the fact that
I never allowed myself to become a passenger. I kept flying the airplane
until I got it stopped on the runway (facing the wrong way and with a load
of weeds, but on the runway).



  #5  
Old November 29th 05, 06:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default My Ground Loop


"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:34:12 -0500, "Reid & Julie Baldwin"
wrote:

I took some advice to change my landing technique and carry
some power through the flare instead of cutting power as soon as I had the
runway made.



Thanks for the story. I hope you're re-thinking the above advice at
this point. Carrying power into the flare isn't necessary, extends
your landing distance, and can get you in trouble as you found out.
Also in x-wind conditions like you describe, a three point landing is
a better idea in my opinion. You talked about wanting to get the tail
wheel down so you had steering. If you did a full stall landing, you
would have had the controllability you were looking for as soon as you
touched the ground, as well as having better control of the airplane
while it was flying. You also would have been slower than what's
needed for a wheel landing which may have allowed you to avoid the
problems you had completely.

It's great you stuck with it and I'm glad it all worked out. Hope its
a mild winter so you get to exercise the bird some.

z



I think I see the three point vs. wheelie thread coming around again, which
is ok by me as it is usually a good one.

I just did a Goggle groups search on +"three point" +wheel and got 2,700
hits. The fourth hit listed was

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.av...46c09d7c32c538

which was a post by our once frequent poster highflyer which pretty much
said everything I would want to say but better than I would. He even
comments on holding a bit of power into the flair.

I will comment that none of my better tailwheel instructors were fans of
wheel landings (for light aircraft) and the best of them refused to teach
wheelies at all. They agreed that wheelies usually meant too fast, with too
much energy, needing too much rollout and with too little authority. The
tail has to come down sooner or later, and a pilot's best friend is a firmly
planted steerable tailwheel.

The only time I have ever felt that I was just along for the ride was on my
second (ever) solo (no instructor in backseat = more forward CG) landing
(PA18) where I got caught with full flaps (shadowed rudder) and the
tailwheel not fully planted. A blast of power helped and I did not ground
loop but did talk with alligators, and had to explain how I got mud on the
underside of the wings (no wheel pants).

Happy landings,



  #6  
Old November 29th 05, 10:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default My Ground Loop

In article , says...

snip

Cheers - interesting reading.

2,600' of runway - can't see how you could run out of room - short of
performing 5 T&G's on it. How do you get on on 700' runways?

--
Duncan
  #7  
Old November 29th 05, 11:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: n/a
Default My Ground Loop

On 2005-11-29, Private wrote:
I think I see the three point vs. wheelie thread coming around again, which
is ok by me as it is usually a good one.


My take on it from plenty of time with light taildraggers such as the
Cessna 140 is that wheel landings are best for gusty *headwinds*, where
there is a chance that after touching down and starting to slow in the
3-point attitude, a strong gust will make you airborne again (and when
the gust ends, without proper flying speed, leading to more trouble).
You can 'stick it on' and with the low angle of attack, the gusts won't
get you airborne again. Once you are slowed enough that the gusts can't
make the plane airborne, you land the tail.

Other than that, I always use 3-point landings.

A steerable tailwheel can be both a blessing and a curse in a strong
crosswind - just before you touch down in a strong crosswind, the
tailwheel will *not* be centred because you'll have a bootful of rudder.
This can result in a swerve if you're not ready for it, and you can't
really take the rudder out... On the other hand, the Auster I fly from
time to time has a free castoring tailwheel and is almost impossible to
taxi on a hard surface in a quartering tailwind - the only steering you
have then is the brakes, and those tiny little drum brakes are really
awful. Given the choice I'd much rather have a steerable tailwheel.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
  #8  
Old November 29th 05, 11:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default My Ground Loop


My rule is that it isn't worth sailing unless the wind is at least 15
mph, and it isn't worth flying when it is.

15 mph is a substantial wind in a taildragger, never mind where it
comes from. Hangars and trees can redirect it.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com
  #9  
Old November 29th 05, 11:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default My Ground Loop

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 05:42:14 GMT, "Private"
wrote:

I will comment that none of my better tailwheel instructors were fans of
wheel landings (for light aircraft) and the best of them refused to teach
wheelies at all.


Gosh, why do they even bother to teach flying at all?

If flying rates a 5 in the scheme of things, taildragger flying rates
7.5 and wheelies a 10.

When I have to do a stall-down landing, I feel as dejected and
worthless as if my father had taken the car away from me.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com
  #10  
Old November 29th 05, 12:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default My Ground Loop


2,600' of runway - can't see how you could run out of room - short of
performing 5 T&G's on it. How do you get on on 700' runways?


Pay no attention to this comment, my friend.

I once landed on half of a 500-foot runway. It was fun, but 2600 feet
is better. I'm told there are plenty of Cessna pilots who won't land
on my home aiport (2600 feet) because their planes are STOL adapted

It does raise a point, however, which I was reluctant to mention
before, and that is: a better recovery than going into the weeds would
have been to go around.

When I was learning to fly the Cub (which took me a very long time for
a variety of reasons) I used to imagine a sailor midway with a flag.
Landing Control Officer? Whatever. Anyhow, if I wasn't happily planted
on the ground by the time I reached the imaginary LCO, I figured he
had waved me off, and I went around.

I never actually had to go around, mind you, but "knowing" he was
there and judging my touch-down spot was a great help.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com
 




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