Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Nick
T

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 1:48:13 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Nick
T

Perhaps add current delivery time from order

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 12:19:11 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 1:48:13 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware
Nick

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware

Perhaps 2G's 26?

Stemme.Â* Except for acquisition cost...

On 9/15/2020 12:34 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware
Perhaps 2G's 26?

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 3:59:35 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Stemme. Except for acquisition cost...
On 9/15/2020 12:34 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware
Perhaps 2G's 26?
--
Dan, 5J
For a Touring Motorglider, I vote for the Phoenix.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 4:59:35 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Stemme.Â* Except for acquisition cost...

On 9/15/2020 12:34 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware
Perhaps 2G's 26?

--
Dan, 5J

What about the 'poor man's version' of the Stemme, the Pipistrel Taurus? I am not sure what the deal is reg. the Rotax 503, which according to the Rotax website is no longer in production but they are advertising an E-version.. Side-by-sides rock! ;-)

Uli
'AS'

Nick Kennedy wrote on 9/15/2020 11:28 AM:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 12:19:11 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 1:48:13 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Something thats available used this year maybe

"Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware"

That helps narrow the field a bit, but what we really need to know mo

-What kind of flying do you intend - recreational, contests, badges, records,
safaris (assisted/unassisted)?

-what is your price limit?

-Are you able and willing to maintain it yourself?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 6:22:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nick Kennedy wrote on 9/15/2020 11:28 AM:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 12:19:11 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 1:48:13 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Something thats available used this year maybe

"Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware"
That helps narrow the field a bit, but what we really need to know mo

-What kind of flying do you intend - recreational, contests, badges, records,
safaris (assisted/unassisted)?

-what is your price limit?

-Are you able and willing to maintain it yourself?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


I owned a DG400 for a few years, found it to be an excellent performing sailplane , the landing gear was perfectly fine, the engine faultless, and it was great fun to fly. I never needed any engine parts, but no doubt over time I would have. I now own a Sinus Flex. A lot of fun but way too low soaring performance unless you let the engine idle, but then that is not what soaring is about. I agree that the Stemme is too big, too complicated, too expensive, etc.

What we need is for a company to build a Sinus, or a Phoenix, or a Katana or any of those similar touring motorgliders with a 4 piece wing that has a 19 or 20 meter span. The outer tips need to come off easily (like my SInus Flex) but when removed the span would be 39 feet so it goes in any hangar. With more than a 15 meter span the soaring performance would likely be close to 40/1 L/D. The 4 stroke Rotax engines are really great, the cost could hardly increase very much, and it would be in the perfect sailplane sweet spot.

The Virus/Sinus are low performance and the view out when thermal
turning is appallingly bad.

The bubble canopy Taurus is better and in strong conditions seems to
go quite well, plus it has a Rotax engine not that heap of junk Solo
found in DG800x & others. You'd struggle to call it high performance.

The DG400 has the usual DG self collapsing U/C feature. Once you
know about this design triumph it's easy to keep the U/C in working
order. It's nice to fly and has really good performance in strong
conditions; the view out is excellent. The engine parts (at least in EASA
land) are not a problem and it's a Rotax not a Solo and it doesn't
regularly break its drive belt. The gel coat/finish is excellent, as usual

with DG. Dealing with DG as a company was a joy. The engine
management man/machine interface is very last century; if you have
three arms you will have no problem, it's nearly as bad as many current
turbo/self-launch gliders: plenty of scope for finger/brain malfunction.
The 400 wing section does NOT like rain or bugs. One of the four
Hoteliers (flaperons & air-brakes) is a tricky blind fiddle to fix &
secure.
Vibration related failures are a known issue: that said my "400" was
significantly more reliable than my much newer Solo powered DG808C
or my Antares 20E.

My choice would be a DG800A (basically a 400 type fuselage/Rotax
engine + DG800 type wings). It doesn't like rain or bugs either but is
significantly better than the DG400 as a glider.

I think all newer DG800x have a vastly improved "one-switch does it
all" engine management system that really is very good?

I've got lots of hours in someone else's Stemme S10, the Limbach
engined one, it was very reliable but the VP propellor overhaul costs
were eye watering even 20 years ago. It's a very competent glider but
big and heavy, not at its best scraping low on the rocks.

I can't think of anything polite to say about Wankel engines... a
vibration free engineers nightmare?

If economics are at all an issue just buy a proper sailplane and get a
tow: it's a FAR FAR cheaper way to fly.