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Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?



 
 
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  #81  
Old October 5th 17, 06:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

I stopped reading after "bunch of snowflakes" as it is now clear we dealing with a clueless troll. Glad I don't need to share the air with him.

Ramy
  #82  
Old October 5th 17, 07:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Agnew
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

If ATC needs me at 250kts, regardless of altitude, they simply issue a clearance for whatever speed they need to fit their flow. They don't descend me below 10k for the benefit of the 250kt below 10k rule.

Paul A.
  #83  
Old October 5th 17, 08:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 9:49:06 PM UTC+3, Paul Agnew wrote:
If ATC needs me at 250kts, regardless of altitude, they simply issue a clearance for whatever speed they need to fit their flow. They don't descend me below 10k for the benefit of the 250kt below 10k rule.


Hmm. If you stall clean at 130 you probably don't ever want to see less than 170 indicated. At 18k ft that would be about 240 true. So you could do 250 if asked. But not if you were at 30k ft.
  #84  
Old October 5th 17, 08:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

The 250 limit is "indicated air speed" not true air speed. The airliner was probably doing ~300 knots at the time of the encounter.
  #85  
Old October 5th 17, 08:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

Mostly correct. I want to stay high not just because of the fuel consumption and potential traffic issues, but also because the ride is better for me and the passengers up high. Many of the approach control frequencies are separated by altitude. The final approach controller is normally responsible for the airspace up to 10K. Thus, the guy or gal that has to get everyone lined up properly before turning things over to the tower, is that "10k and below" person. The ironic thing, is that the busier the airspace and airport is, the sooner we get forced down into the airspace we do not want to fly in so they can coordinate.
  #86  
Old October 5th 17, 10:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 10:12:39 PM UTC+3, wrote:
The 250 limit is "indicated air speed" not true air speed. The airliner was probably doing ~300 knots at the time of the encounter.


Well that's weird, because a B737 or A320 or whatever cruising at Mach 0.78 at 35000 ft only has an IAS/EAS of 250 knots *anyway*, even though the TAS is 450.

So unless they go faster on descent the 250 limit is pretty much meaningless.
  #87  
Old October 5th 17, 10:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 2:14:21 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 10:12:39 PM UTC+3, wrote:
The 250 limit is "indicated air speed" not true air speed. The airliner was probably doing ~300 knots at the time of the encounter.


Well that's weird, because a B737 or A320 or whatever cruising at Mach 0.78 at 35000 ft only has an IAS/EAS of 250 knots *anyway*, even though the TAS is 450.

So unless they go faster on descent the 250 limit is pretty much meaningless.


Doesn't seem like you thought about that one much. There is no speed limit at 35000 so it is already meaningless. By the altitude that it becomes meaningful, it is meaningful.
  #88  
Old October 5th 17, 11:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 12:35:12 AM UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 2:14:21 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 10:12:39 PM UTC+3, wrote:
The 250 limit is "indicated air speed" not true air speed. The airliner was probably doing ~300 knots at the time of the encounter.


Well that's weird, because a B737 or A320 or whatever cruising at Mach 0.78 at 35000 ft only has an IAS/EAS of 250 knots *anyway*, even though the TAS is 450.

So unless they go faster on descent the 250 limit is pretty much meaningless.


Doesn't seem like you thought about that one much. There is no speed limit at 35000 so it is already meaningless. By the altitude that it becomes meaningful, it is meaningful.


Really?

So what's the typical maximum IAS seen on a typical 737 flight, then?

They have an Mmo of 340 knots, but I doubt they usually get anywhere near it.
  #89  
Old October 6th 17, 12:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

So what's the typical maximum IAS seen on a typical 737 flight, then?
They have an Mmo of 340 knots, but I doubt they usually get anywhere near it.


Never flown a 737, but they are probably at or near Mmo during descents and in cruise at lower alititudes.
There are several airline pilots that are also glider pilots, so maybe they will reply.
Although, they may be too busy for ras.

If it helps, the IAS for a C560 at FL410 is usually around 230 kias which is ~420 true.
At FL350 the indicated is 250 and below FL250 the power must be reduced to stay below Vne of 290 even in cruise.
Descents from high altitude can only be at full power for a few minutes before Vne is reached and typical descents are done at reduced power.
If allowed by ATC to descend at pilot discretion, then it is easy to descend at Vne with reduced power to the assigned altitude.
If an expedited descent or agressive crossing restriction is given, then the descent may be at idle and sometimes even with spoilers out to stay below Vne.
Obviously the lower the aircraft is (i.e. closer to standard sea level pressure and temperature) the closer the indicated airspeeds is to the true airspeed.
It is usually necessary to start slowing down by 15,000 to be under the 250 knot speed limit at 10,000.
290 kias at 15,000 is 380 knots and 250 kias at 10,000 is 300 knots.
  #90  
Old October 7th 17, 07:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
CindyB[_2_]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 4:05:08 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 5:21:37 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:

ATC wants them below 10k' so they are below the 250kt limit. This is to handle busy airspace and help with workload.


Interested to know if this can be confirmed.

-T8


Take a peek at Flight Aware for almost any Class B at which you look. Right now, KORD, 4000 msl 280 kts for a SW 737. Night, junky weather, 1am local, so not much glider worries. But, it has been my observation there are not many air Traffic Cops worried about Part 121 speeders. Perhaps that is an entirely different thread.

Yes, I think transponders in gliders are hugely helpful. But I think pilot education has similar value. Awareness of Patterns of traffic use by all categories is incumbent on all pilots. One of my favorite Cindy-isms is that we shouldn't be playing volleyball on the freeway in rush hour.
We should know the paths heavies mostly use.

We shouldn't call Class E airspace 'uncontrolled'. Controlled airspace means places that IFR traffic can be routed. It does not mean places that a glider must request a clearance before entering. Since IFR traffic can be routed in Class E, those guys need to know that on VFR days they MUST look outside. That a controller and flight plan is NOT sweeping their path clean.

Awareness & education must take place on all three sides of the fence.... GA, Part 121/135 and ATC. (was that a mixed metaphor? sorry. sort of.) It is a blessing that many glider operations have been proactive - in education and in installations of hardware. Need to cross a freeway? Listen in on the Approach freq and learn who's roaring through.

Perhaps we accept this occasion as an opportunity to educate our family, again. We are not the only folks out there in the sky, and we are VERY difficult to see. Even with a TXP active and ATC giving the other guy warnings, I have had to leap out of the path...of the fast guy.

Cindy B
 




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