ASH 26E VS DG 808C

Gary Evans wrote:

[discussing the cost of a total engine replacement]
While the major 26 engine parts may cost $8k Euro a
replacement engine can cost $17k US as one unhappy
owner found out the hard way. I sure hope it isn't
a common problem, because that would bankrupt a lot
of people.

A replacement Solo engine costs about $8K, according to the DG dealer.
If I were looking at buying one of these gliders and wanted to factor in
the potential for a total engine replacement, I'd add $1K to $2K to
price of the ASH 26 E, and use that number in my considerations. I
wouldn't add the whole $9K difference because I think it's unlikely I'd
need to replace engine, but a prospective owner should choose whatever
amount he can be comfortable with.

I understand that a belt break which stops
the water pump results in almost instant over heating
which can fry the engine resulting in one of those
big bills but as long as you constantly watch the temp
gauge and keep one hand on the off switch that shouldn't
be a big issue. When two belts break at the same meet
however I would no longer call it an unusual occurrence.

The belts that broke at the Parowan camp were the propeller drive belts,
not the fan belt (the water pump is driven directly by the engine - no
belt). The drive belts on the 26 E fleet did not break for many years
(for example, mine is 12 years old and has 114 hours on it), but a few
of newest gliders have had this happen. We've been told that Gates, the
belt manufacturer, changed the construction of the belts about three
years ago, and the consequences of that change are now surfacing.

Schleicher tells us they will correct this situation. In the meantime,
pilots are cautioned to use the handbook procedure for starting the
engine, and avoid "pumping" the throttle or the primer when the engine
is running slowly. So far, there haven't been any belts break during an
in-flight restart.

As not all may know, some of the Solo engine systems have also suffered
from propeller drive belts breaking, and Ventus/Nimbus self-launchers
had (perhaps still have) a 20 hour life limit on the belt. I don't know
the exact situation for DG, but they had similar problems. It's my
understanding there are also changes in their starting procedure that
reduce the problem, and some mechanical changes that may/will eliminate
the problem. Gary can inform us on this.

Fortunately, the Solo belt breakage was also always on the ground and
not in the air (to my knowledge).

Interesting that DG's engine management system which
automated the process beyond the 26 would be viewed
as unnecessary like the parking option on the new
Lexus. I guess that means that all development should
have just stopped with the 26. Hmmm!

As a former electrical engineer that used to help automate processes,
I'm all in favor of automation; however, the 26 E system is so simple
and reliable, I've not wanted Schleicher to change it.

Ps. As I said before IMO both of these ships are good
choices but both have advantages and disadvantages.
Were that not the case one of these two manufactures
would have been out of business by now. You can measure
how well DG is doing by the sales volume and innovations.
I assume Schleicher is doing as well. You pay your
money and take your choice. I do suggest interested
buyers research beyond owners opinions as they (we)
tend to be a tad biased as you may have noticed.

A big problem is it's rare for a pilot to have significant time in BOTH
gliders, so he can offer an informed comparison. I urge any prospective
owner that is interested in a particular glider but concerned (or
particularly interested) about some aspect of it to discuss it with the
dealer, and ultimately with factory if the dealer's response isn't
enough. These are low volume manufacturers providing expensive, complex
machines, so you are more like a partner in the operation than just a
customer walking out of Wal-Mart with a toaster under your arm.

I've had these conversations with Schleicher over 20 years of owning
first an ASW 20 and now the ASH 26 E, so I've got a lot of confidence in
the ability and will of the people at Schleicher to provide a good
glider, and to make things right if they go wrong. That's the bias on my
part, because I'm not nearly so familiar with the crew at DG. DG pilots
likely have the opposite experience.

So, talk to the owners, the dealer, the factory, maybe the folks that
repair them, look carefully at the glider (and be sure to sit in it),
and consider that you'll probably be happy with your choice because you
won't know what you missed!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Oct 28, 2:12 pm, Gary Evans
wrote:
While the major 26 engine parts may cost $8k Euro a
replacement engine can cost $17k US as one unhappy
owner found out the hard way. I sure hope it isn't
a common problem, because that would bankrupt a lot
of people.

Proper maintenance and adherance to operationg procedures are likely
all that is needed to prevent an engine replacement. Consider the cost
of an annual inspection of a typical airplane with a 150 or so HP
Lycoming or Continental engine. I choose to pull the engine on my '26E
at each annual so we can inspect and clean it with some cleanser and
rags. I also clean out the engine bay. This adds about 4 hours to the
inspection, but it still takes less than a day.

When two belts break at the same meet
however I would no longer call it an unusual occurrence.

Both these ships had less than 10 hours on the belt/engine. As Bumper
said, it appears that Gates "improved" the belt for its typicall
application, but this change somehow made it more "brittle" in the
Schleicher installation. The problem is under investigation, but I
don't know the current state.

Interesting that DG's engine management system which
automated the process beyond the 26 would be viewed
as unnecessary like the parking option on the new
Lexus. I guess that means that all development should
have just stopped with the 26. Hmmm!

I doubt it... My wife and I have manual transmissions on our crew
truck as well as our daily cars, and IMP, the DEI provides about as
much perceived improvement as an automatic transmission would. I also
think that Schleicher would rather not spend time and MONEY making
minor changes that require regulatory approvals. There are a fw simple
things that could be dont to the ILEC controller, but I understand that
even a firmware update to add a new feature is an expensive
proposition.

I know for a fact that you have this flaw so it must
have been especially painful when you realized there
were so many areas for improvement in your 26. I'm
sure Kemp was exaggerating when he said you've made
1000 changes but exactly how many changes have you
made?

From what I've gleaned in various email posts he's made to our owners
mailing list, most of the changes are very minor - which include the
quiet vent, super yawstring, something similar to the Piggott hook,
revolution counter to better keep track of oil consumption, and
improved springs for the steerable tailwheel. He's also rigged a neat
pneumatic switch, and built a special dolly for towing the ship
sideways from his hangar to the runway.

Ps. As I said before IMO both of these ships are good
choices but both have advantages and disadvantages.
Were that not the case one of these two manufactures
would have been out of business by now. You can measure
how well DG is doing by the sales volume and innovations.
I assume Schleicher is doing as well. You pay your
money and take your choice. I do suggest interested
buyers research beyond owners opinions as they (we)
tend to be a tad biased as you may have noticed.

Absolutely!

-Tom

On Oct 28, 8:09 pm, Stewart Kissel
wrote:
Or put another way...
a new selflauncher=towplane, 10 year old glider and hangar?

Unfortunately, the dollar is doing poorly against the euro... I hear a
new ASH-26E ready to fly with instruments and Cobra trailer is pushing
$200K. Just the trailer will buy a decent used sailplane...

But, in the last 22 years, I've owned 2 other sailplanes, and was able
to sell each for the same amount as I had originally paid. So the real
cost of owning such a ship is pretty much insurance and maintenance, as
the purchase price can generally be recoveredduring the sale of the
ship.

-Tom

5Z wrote:

On Oct 28, 8:09 pm, Stewart Kissel
wrote:
Or put another way...
a new selflauncher=towplane, 10 year old glider and hangar?

Unfortunately, the dollar is doing poorly against the euro... I hear a
new ASH-26E ready to fly with instruments and Cobra trailer is pushing
$200K. Just the trailer will buy a decent used sailplane...

But, in the last 22 years, I've owned 2 other sailplanes, and was able
to sell each for the same amount as I had originally paid. So the real
cost of owning such a ship is pretty much insurance and maintenance, as
the purchase price can generally be recoveredduring the sale of the
ship.

If you don't require a 50:1, 18 meter self-launcher, but could be happy
with a 40:1 15 meter self-launcher, take a look at the Apis and Silent
offerings, which were under $100K the last time I looked. For a two
seater, the Taurus looks attractive, but it's more money (not $200K
though!).


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

At 03:36 29 October 2006, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The belts that broke at the Parowan camp were the propeller
drive belts,
not the fan belt (the water pump is driven directly
by the engine - no
belt). The drive belts on the 26 E fleet did not break
for many years
(for example, mine is 12 years old and has 114 hours
on it), but a few
of newest gliders have had this happen. We've been
told that Gates, the
belt manufacturer, changed the construction of the
belts about three
years ago, and the consequences of that change are
now surfacing.

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

'Transponders in Sailplanes' on the Soaring Safety
Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

'A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation' at
www.motorglider.org


The Gates Poly Chain belts are the best you can buy
and in properly designed drives will last a long long
time as demonstrated by their use for driving camshafts
in automobiles for 100,000 miles. In spite of their
strength they have been broken in both DG and ASH drive
systems but possibly for different reasons. What the
belts do not like are shock loads and the internal
cords can easily be damaged by something as simple
as improper storage.
The belt failures on DG’s are thought to be caused
by shock loads imposed during starting/low rpm where
the power pulses are most uneven. On the DG's the best
prevention is to minimize the shock loads by getting
past the low rpm phase as quickly as possible and optimizing
cold start fuel delivery.

The ASH failures may be due to another problem that
being storage. The gates preventive maintenance manual
clearly states that the stored belts should not be
subjected to bending beyond that which is defined as
the minimum pulley diameter as it may damage internal
cording resulting in premature failure.
The belts are obviously designed to be used in a straight
line without twisting which may be the reason why twisting
is not specifically identified as something to be avoided
in the Gates manual.
The ASH drive system puts a 90-degree bend into the
belts when the engine is stowed into a relatively hot
environment. If you explained these failures to a Gates
engineer and showed them the drive design they may
point out that twisting in heated storage could be
a contributing factor.

See we do have some things in common.

Gary Evans wrote:

The ASH failures may be due to another problem that
being storage. The gates preventive maintenance manual
clearly states that the stored belts should not be
subjected to bending beyond that which is defined as
the minimum pulley diameter as it may damage internal
cording resulting in premature failure.
The belts are obviously designed to be used in a straight
line without twisting which may be the reason why twisting
is not specifically identified as something to be avoided
in the Gates manual.
The ASH drive system puts a 90-degree bend into the
belts when the engine is stowed into a relatively hot
environment. If you explained these failures to a Gates
engineer and showed them the drive design they may
point out that twisting in heated storage could be
a contributing factor.

I have no knowledge of what Schleicher's discussions with Gates have
been; however, the ASH belt breaking problem is a recent one. Older
belts don't break - it's the NEW belts that are breaking. My belt is 12
years old, the engine has 114 hours on it, and at least 600 starts. When
I discussed belt life with Martin Heide (the "H" in ASH) about 3 years
ago (which was before the current problem), he said several 26 Es had
been in the shop for the 250 hour motor inspection, and all belts were
in good condition.

It could be the twisting has become a problem due to the change in belt
construction that Schleicher says has caused the recent problems, but I
doubt it. When a belt breaks with only 5 or 10 hours on it, it doesn't
seem long enough for degradation to occur. I suspect the culprit is also
shock loading, but that's speculation on my part, since I haven't
discussed it with the factory or Gates.

In any case, a prospective buyer might want to discuss the issue with
Schleicher, and remember that a glider ordered now won't be delivered
for many months, during which the problem is likely to be solved, if it
isn't already.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

wrote:
In the Antares 20E, to extend and start the motor:

Push the power control forward.
10 seconds later you're under power.
THATS ALL.

To retract the motor:

Pop up the little mirror
Pull the power control back.
For your entertainment, watch the prop step to vertical and
disappear.
Put away the little mirror.
15 seconds later you're clean.

No cool-down cycle.
No prop-stop fiddling.
No multiple controls to operate.
No priming fiddling or "automatic" primer flooding.
No fussing with throttle setting to start.
No fuel valve.
No ignition switch to forget (laugh, but many times per year this
happens).
No starter button.
No engine master switch.
No extension/retraction controls.
No backfires.
No belt to break or adjust.
No manual pnuematic input switching.
No fun at all, eh ?

See ya, Dave
http://www.nadler.com

PS: You can leave the little mirror out if that's still too complicated
!

PPS: OK, its true, you do have to turn it on before you go flying.

PS: It was pointed out that I forgot:

NO GASOLINE AND NO GASOLINE FUMES !

See ya, Dave

wrote:

NO GASOLINE AND NO GASOLINE FUMES !


I hope the batteries arent made by Sony!
Antares has been a long time coming. Looking forward to seeing and
maybe flying one.
But for the moment am happy with what an Australian friend calls a
"stink glider".
Jim

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:B341h.1741$B44.1220@trndny07...
Gary Evans wrote:

The ASH failures may be due to another problem that
being storage. The gates preventive maintenance manual
clearly states that the stored belts should not be
subjected to bending beyond that which is defined as
the minimum pulley diameter as it may damage internal
cording resulting in premature failure.
The belts are obviously designed to be used in a straight
line without twisting which may be the reason why twisting
is not specifically identified as something to be avoided
in the Gates manual.
The ASH drive system puts a 90-degree bend into the
belts when the engine is stowed into a relatively hot
environment. If you explained these failures to a Gates
engineer and showed them the drive design they may
point out that twisting in heated storage could be
a contributing factor.

I have no knowledge of what Schleicher's discussions with Gates have been;
however, the ASH belt breaking problem is a recent one. Older belts don't
break - it's the NEW belts that are breaking. My belt is 12 years old, the
engine has 114 hours on it, and at least 600 starts. When I discussed belt
life with Martin Heide (the "H" in ASH) about 3 years ago (which was
before the current problem), he said several 26 Es had been in the shop
for the 250 hour motor inspection, and all belts were in good condition.

It could be the twisting has become a problem due to the change in belt
construction that Schleicher says has caused the recent problems, but I
doubt it. When a belt breaks with only 5 or 10 hours on it, it doesn't
seem long enough for degradation to occur. I suspect the culprit is also
shock loading, but that's speculation on my part, since I haven't
discussed it with the factory or Gates.

In any case, a prospective buyer might want to discuss the issue with
Schleicher, and remember that a glider ordered now won't be delivered for
many months, during which the problem is likely to be solved, if it isn't
already.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Is the ASH-26 a Walter Binder installation design?
It seems so different than the other Retract-Engine Sailplanes.

Hartley Falbaum
DG800B "KF"

HL Falbaum wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:B341h.1741$B44.1220@trndny07...
Gary Evans wrote:

The ASH failures may be due to another problem that
being storage. The gates preventive maintenance manual
clearly states that the stored belts should not be
subjected to bending beyond that which is defined as
the minimum pulley diameter as it may damage internal
cording resulting in premature failure.
The belts are obviously designed to be used in a straight
line without twisting which may be the reason why twisting
is not specifically identified as something to be avoided
in the Gates manual.
The ASH drive system puts a 90-degree bend into the
belts when the engine is stowed into a relatively hot
environment. If you explained these failures to a Gates
engineer and showed them the drive design they may
point out that twisting in heated storage could be
a contributing factor.

I have no knowledge of what Schleicher's discussions with Gates have been;
however, the ASH belt breaking problem is a recent one. Older belts don't
break - it's the NEW belts that are breaking. My belt is 12 years old, the
engine has 114 hours on it, and at least 600 starts. When I discussed belt
life with Martin Heide (the "H" in ASH) about 3 years ago (which was
before the current problem), he said several 26 Es had been in the shop
for the 250 hour motor inspection, and all belts were in good condition.

It could be the twisting has become a problem due to the change in belt
construction that Schleicher says has caused the recent problems, but I
doubt it. When a belt breaks with only 5 or 10 hours on it, it doesn't
seem long enough for degradation to occur. I suspect the culprit is also
shock loading, but that's speculation on my part, since I haven't
discussed it with the factory or Gates.

In any case, a prospective buyer might want to discuss the issue with
Schleicher, and remember that a glider ordered now won't be delivered for
many months, during which the problem is likely to be solved, if it isn't
already.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Is the ASH-26 a Walter Binder installation design?
It seems so different than the other Retract-Engine Sailplanes.

Hartley Falbaum
DG800B "KF"

IIRC, Binder does the Solo-based DG and SH designs, and I think
some others (maybe Eta and the ASH-25 EB derivative he produces)...
I don't think he's involved with the Midwest installations in
Schleicher
products.

Antares was developed entirely independently of the other designs.

Best Regards, Dave