Cost of ownership????

On Mar 25, 5:56 am, Mike Spera wrote:

A far worse injustice is leveled on many airplanes. Namely, the owner
cannot really afford the plane so they choose to buy gas to fly around
and then skimp on the maintenance. He/she then demands a ridiculous
selling price for their run out dog when the HAVE to sell.

Well, nobody is forced to pay a ridiculous price for a run out plane.
The seller can ask all he wants, but the buyer can simply go somewhere
else. Eventually the market will take care of the price.

I consider it my
responsibility to keep an airplane in good shape (repairs, upgrades,
etc.). Many people (especially in my home America) have a hard time with
this concept.

Repairs, absolutely. Upgrades? I'd rather see owners skip that
GNS430 install and use that money to fly across the country three
times and visiting places. Of course it would be nice to do both, but
most people had to choose one vs. another. A lot of owners chose to
be a curator instead of an aviator.

The problem with GA isn't people not taking care of old planes. It's
people not flying enough. Unless your plane is a P-51, I don't see
anything wrong with old plane gets used up and eventually goes to
junkyard if it's used up for good reasons, like 20,000 hr on the wing
spar. The problem with GA isn't people not taking care of old
planes. It's people not flying nearly enough. If GA flying hour is
10x of today and all the old planes get used up in about 10 years,
we'll have a much healthier GA industry and the new planes are likely
to be less than half of what they cost today because of the large
volume production.

On Mar 25, 6:56 am, Mike Spera wrote:
The worst thing you can do as a owner is to let the maintenance cost
eat up all your gas money, and you ended up keeping a hangar queen for
the next owner, one with a rusty engine no less. There's nothing
sadder than that.

A far worse injustice is leveled on many airplanes. Namely, the owner
cannot really afford the plane so they choose to buy gas to fly around
and then skimp on the maintenance. He/she then demands a ridiculous
selling price for their run out dog when the HAVE to sell.

In either case, if you have to ask, you likely cannot afford it.

Good luck,
Mike

I've allways loved to hear that line. It makes me think of all the
people who buy a house and end up
in bankruptcy. I suppose these are the same people who didn't ask
either. Unless you have milions comming
out your ass, what kind of person wouldn't find out ahead of time what
the entire cost of somthing is ahead of
time? After all, who is dumb enough believe that they are just going
to make the payments without getting the maitenance cost? Oh thats
right, the person who didn't ask. It seems to me, if you have to ask,
your smart enough
to own it, not dumb enough to buy it and not be able to take care of
it. Plane or otherwise.
Lou

What kept me from buying at first was the idea that if I didn't fly at least
100+ hours a year, owning didn't make sense. I never flew 100+ hours a year
as a renter because paying the hourly rates discouraged me from using the
plane for anything other than local flights. Once I OWNED the plane, the
100+ hours per year came naturally because it became a hobby and a social
thing, flying with the guys out to breakfast every weekend and taking long
flights occasionally to visit relatives, go to Osh etc.
If you love to fly you practically owe it to yourself to own a plane. You
just need a plane and a plan that fits your budget, whether it's a simple
one shared with someone else or a complex one exclusively yours.
--
Best Regards,
Mike

http://photoshow.comcast.net/mikenoel

Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.

"M" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 21, 6:20 am, "Lou" wrote:
I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
the numbers into.

Forget the spreadsheet. The single most important thing you should do
as an owner is to fly a lot. 150+ hr a year. 200+ hr is even
better. Do that for a few years, and if your funds is getting low,
sell the plane and you can say to youself that you had owned a plane
once, flew to many interesting places, and it didn't cost you more
than renting, and you were able to make trips that a renter won't be
able to do. Mortgage your house if you have to, but you *must* keep
flying a lot of hours a year as long as you own it. It's worth it.

The worst thing you can do as a owner is to let the maintenance cost
eat up all your gas money, and you ended up keeping a hangar queen for
the next owner, one with a rusty engine no less. There's nothing
sadder than that.

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:35:46 GMT, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:25:47 -0600, "Jim Burns"
wrote:

AOPA has a couple worksheets on their ownership/partnership page.
Just yesterday I figured our ownership & operating costs for the Aztec over
the past 2.5 years.
I didn't hit the floor too hard.
Jim

Anolder Bonanza should run about $12K per year if you fly a lot of if
you don't fly much at all. I figure the Aztec would be about twice
that.

snip

Usually when a prospective owner talks to me about how much it costs
to own/fly, I tell them to go to the bank, get $500 ($1000 for a twin)
in $20's and come back out to the hangar some day when the wind is
calm.

I tell them that if they cannot make a nice little bonfire on the ramp
out of the cash, turn and walk away with a smile on their face and no
regrets, in my opinion they are not truly ready for the costs of
owning a tyoe-certificated airplane.

The funny part is that most of them think I'm kidding...

TC
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:17:11 -0400, "FLAV8R"
wrote:

"Tim" wrote in message...
"If you have to ask..."

It costs a lot. The airshares program seems to be reasonably set up. At
first glance it seems expensive though. They did the work for
you/everyone. Check out their pricing. If you can't afford at least a
third to half of that program, you probably have to walk away or find more
co-owners.

http://www.airshareselite.com/airpor...escription.pdf

It is a commitment to own a plane.


Wow! If I did my homework correctly, it would cost over 70k for the first
year to fly for only 100 hours.

Buy an older Bonanza and you can fly it for about 6 years for that.
Around there that wold cover all costs, fixed and variable.

Comparing that to my average rental cost of a new C182 with G1000 I would be
able to fly over
600 hours in that same year.

At 130 hours a year the Deb runs about $85 to $95/hr with today's gas
prices. A some what newer F33 might be a bit less expensive to run
per hour due to maintenance but would cost more up front. You should
get back the cost of the airplane later on.

The SR22 is expensive and the insurance is quite high. Local couple
were paying about $9,000 for insurance. They are now on their second
plane as they put over 700 hours on the first one the first year. They
should have about a year on the second one so I don't know what their
costs would be now.

I looked into the airshares program and iy appeared I could operate a
new A36 for less than it would have cost me to stay in that program.
I guess I'll wait till I win the lottery.

David

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:42:12 -0400, Jon Kraus
wrote:

Lou,

It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership
is EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200
hours a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).

I don't know about other folks but I have owned for only 3 years so I
don't have much experience but here is what I found.

For a 2 way partnership in a 100k Mooney it costs me about 1000 a month
to fly 5 hours a month. This includes all my fixed costs of $575 (plane
note, hanger rent, XM weather subscription and insurance). We charge
ourselves $85 per tach hour wet. This includes engine reserve, fuel and
some cash put back for annual inspection expenses.

Our first 3 annual's averaged $5000. We have had several times in the

How many hours are you putting on that thing?
flying over a 130 hours a year my annuals averaged about $500 to $600
with one being close to $5000 due to a bunch of ADs all coming due the
same time as well as the heater crapping out, a flame cone giveing out
and some other things.

Prior tot he cost of gas going up I was runing about $76 or so an
hour. Gas has gone up less than a dollar a gallon here, but at a one
dollar increase that'd be $90 per hour. That cost includes everything
including annuals and $10 toward a major which is getting close. I
may have to raise that to $15 toward the major. BTW that also includes
over $8,000 fo a new 3-blade hartzel prop exchange and labor.

last 3 years where we have had to shell out $1000 here and $1000 there
for things that broke. We like to keep the plane squawk-free so this
could have been cheaper.

I run a progressive maintenance program which is probably why the
annuals have been relatively inexpensive.


Here is the sad part. For me I have come to the realization that I don't
want to shell out this much cash for flying anymore and am offering my
partner the buy-out deal of a lifetime. I am going back to renting but
will probably take a break from flying all together.

Good luck with whatever you do but realize that it will cost you a LOT
more money to own than to rent. That is just a plain and simple fact.

That I don't believe, but it depends on how much you fly. At 100
hours a year it's cheaper for me to own the Deb than rent a 172 around
here.The Deb is paid for but I do not take any credit toward what I
might get out of it some day. That means when I do sell it I can
average that over the hours I've flown and deduct that from the cost
per hour.


Jon Kraus



Lou wrote:
I (like everyone else) am considering purchasing a plane. I've looked
up the cost of ownership in this group and came up with some good
information. However, I'm looking for a spreadsheet that I can plug
the numbers into. Has anyone either made this or know where to
download one? It's probebly not hard to do but I thought I would look
here first. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?
Lou

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:26:23 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

There are very few absolute truisms in life. I believe I know two of them:

1. If it flies, floats, or fornicates it is far cheaper to rent.

2. If it has tires, tits, or testicles it will eventually give you trouble.


Having said that, you don't need a $100K Super Bugsmasher as your first
airplane. There are tens of thousands of elderly 150s, 172s, Cherokees, and
the like that may not have the sex appeal of a 200 knot bent-gear aircraft,
but they will not eat your pocketbook for lunch either.

You don't need a hopped up 172 with a 200 horse twisty prop to get you to
your Sunday fly-in. The elderly 150 may not get you there in fifteen
minutes ... might take half an hour ... but 90% of the fun of a fly-in is
getting there. Same with most of life.

Just as a addition to this part. A 172 Hawk XP and I took off from
3BS at the same time It's 50 nauticle miles to HTL from here. I had
just turned off the runway when he called into the pattern. So, unless
it's long distances it matters little whether you are traveling at 200
MPH or 130 and if we go that far it should make little additional
difference if only traveling 100.


Depending on whether you are a low wing wimp or a high wing manly guy, you
can start off with a Tripacer (Piper's Milkstool) and work your way up

Kinds fancy there. I started in a Colt.

through the ranks over the years to what you can afford. You may have the
milkstool your whole career. That's the way it goes. Same with a 150 (or a
120/140 if you are a tailwheel kinda guy) and work your way up through the
170/172 series.

For a two passenger I'd just as soon have a cub although they do get a
bit chilly up here in the winter.


Yeah, after 40 years of the 120-170-172 gig I've got a 182. It keeps me on
the edge of poverty, but it is what I can afford. Do I drool at 210s?
Sure. But I didn't jump into a Citation while the ink was still wet on my
private.

There's a reason I'm flying a 47 year old Beech instead of a 20 year
old.



Jim



"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
.. .
Lou,

It varies tremendously but the one constant is that airplane ownership is
EXPENSIVE when compared against renting. That is unless you fly 200 hours
a year (most pilots average 50-75 hours a year).

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:56:23 GMT, Mike Spera
wrote:



The worst thing you can do as a owner is to let the maintenance cost
eat up all your gas money, and you ended up keeping a hangar queen for
the next owner, one with a rusty engine no less. There's nothing
sadder than that.

A far worse injustice is leveled on many airplanes. Namely, the owner
cannot really afford the plane so they choose to buy gas to fly around
and then skimp on the maintenance. He/she then demands a ridiculous
selling price for their run out dog when the HAVE to sell.

In either case, if you have to ask, you likely cannot afford it. Those
using spreadsheets and trying to calculate this down to the dime may
want to consider that airplanes don't require cash according to a
schedule. If you don't have $5k - $10k laying around at all times (and
not in the form of a loan), you are going to have a tough time making
ownership work out.


Most airplanes will develop an average or ball park figure for a
particular make and model for the cost per hour against the number of
hours flown per year. OTOH there is no guarantee that any single
airplane of the same make and model flown the same hours per year will
come any where near that figure. I could easily go out and even with
a good pre buy inspection end up with one that cost double the average
figure, or I *MIGHT* get one that is considerably cheaper and I have
to emphasize the odds against that.

Airplane ownership is NOT like a car or boat. You are not an owner, but
a temporary steward of an increasingly rare object. I consider it my

I think the same way about my cars, cameras, radios, and other objects
I own.

responsibility to keep an airplane in good shape (repairs, upgrades,
etc.). Many people (especially in my home America) have a hard time with

Upgrades are something else. If you own an old airplane it may be
worth more in the original condition than upgraded.

Even though the Deb has been heavily modified I've had two museums
want the thing. They are willing to give me one whale of a deduction,
but I don't need deductions, I need cash. Besides it's the only
airplane I've owned outright and I've kinda developed an attachment to
it and really don't want to part with it. For me to sell it some one
would have to want it a lot worse than I do and I seriously doubt
that's going to happen, so yes, I did purchase my lottery ticket for
tomorrow night.


this concept. They are accustomed to buying things and then throwing
them away when they become old or inconvenient.

Good luck,
Mike
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Matt Barrow wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Marco Leon wrote:
You're welcome. FYI, I stopped using it because I didn't like what
it was telling me.


"Lou" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
Lou

I had some how missed that site. Good work. I pluged in the numbers
based on 601XL I'm building and I break even at 26.9 hours/year.
That makes me very happy.
Do you use yours for business at all?

Yes, I'll be using it to travel for business some.

Mike Spera wrote:
In either case, if you have to ask, you likely cannot afford it.

You know I always hated this answer. Those that aren't in the habit of
examining the costs of things they purchase are seldom ever going to be in
the position to purchase an aircraft.