What do you do in the real world?

Mxsmanic wrote:
Tim writes:


If you don't believe that if your clearance limit is the airport and
that you can pick any approach and IAF and execute it when lost coms,
then you can try this:

from "Instrument Flying Handbook"
FAA H 8083 15
page 10-11

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...-8083-15-2.pdf

"Holding Instructions
If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance
beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned
altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted
holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are
expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on
the course upon which you approached the fix. You should
immediately request further clearance."


That last part might be difficult without a radio.



Huh?
The OP was confused about what to do at a clearance limit - regardless
of radio contact. He asserted that at that point he would have to
improvise. That is not the case. Why did you even bother to reply to this?

Yes, I understand that. And they gave you that clearance limit because
that is what you requested from them - when you filed. That is the end
of your flight and they gave you a clearance to there. It is not a
clearance to hold there is it? Because what you are arguing is that you
really only have a clearance to circle the airport every time you get
a clearance that starts with "cleared to xxx airport" and ends in
"...direct."


No, that is not what I am arguing. I have never said any such thing
(because that's clearly ridiculous).

You are. You state that you are going to your clearance limit - which
is the airport, THEN, you have to go somewhere else then back to the
airport which was your clearance limit.


I am beginning to lose my patience with you.


The feeling is mutual, believe me.


You are expecting that every time you fly to an airport
you are going to fly to the airport, but somewhere along the line a
controller is going to lead you to an IAF, the final approach course, or
some other way get you to land.


No. In fact, the only reason I'm asking the question is because I'm NOT
expecting what you say I am expecting.

You have stated this many times - you usually get vectors, etc. And
this is the reason you are confused. You also stated that you rarely do
a full approach.



If your clearance limit is an airport, what makes you think you can't
execute an IAP and land?


Probably the same thing that makes you think that the moon is made of
green cheese. (You don't think the moon is made of green cheese? That
would be my point.)


Same thing that happens with a cruise clearance. You are cleared to the
airport and can fly any of the approaches you like.

Losing comms in some ways makes it easier. Fewer things to do. Just
fly the last clearance you were given and land. No need to make things up.

Ron Garret wrote:
In article ,
Tim wrote:



This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the
airport then the IAF?


Because that's what the regs say. You are the one saying I should be
following the regs.

I give up.



You should go to an IAF, then land at your
clearance limit - which is the airport.


An odd bit of advice from someone who believes that one should follow
the regs and not improvise.


Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport, unless
on an IAP?


I enter the airport's identifier into my GPS and hit the "direct" button.


And those of us without that magical device? The way to navigate to the
clearance limit - the airport, is to use the IAP. In these cases, any
one that you choose. So, once again, you do NOT go to the airport and
circle around it and hang out. You go to an IAF, then to your clearance
limit and land. What good does it do to be at your destination which is
your clearance limit at 10000 ft?


When would you ever use the airport as a fix and not the destination?


When it is my clearance limit. Are we done with the pop quiz now?

Ugh. we are going round and round...



that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach.


That is what the regs say to do.

So how in the world would I navigate to the airport using just a VOR?


Non-sequitur. I filed /G. But let me ask you: how would YOU fly direct
from SNS to an IAP for KVNY using just a VOR?


The only way to do it is to use an IAP.


Wow, you really are clueless, aren't you. Are you not aware of the
existence of IFR-certified GPS? (Are you even a pilot?)

I am not the clueless one, Mr Pot. Shall I reintroduce your suggestion
of making **** up when reaching a clearance limit and not having any
further instructions?

My plane does not have a GPS. the regs have to work for me too.

Yes, I am a pilot.


Right, but you were also unaware of what to do when reaching a clearance
limit with no more instructions and no published hold.


You should look up the aphorism about people who live in glass houses.

Yes, Mr. Pot.


rg

Tim wrote:



I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an airport
that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach. He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance
limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not
believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do. That is
why I posted it.

I hope you are not saying to do this at any airport.

As a controller at a class C I want you down. We will be watching you
on radar. ATC has no idea what your estrimated time is to any fix in a
radar environment. Don't sit anywhere and hold. If it's VFR pick an
airplane to follow and land, just like your NORDO in the pattern. If
your IMC pick an approach and land.

Ron Garret wrote:
In article , Tim
wrote:


The OP was confused about what to do at a clearance limit - regardless
of radio contact.


Not so. My original question was: "what should I have done if I'd been
in IMC and lost comm before they changed my routing?

This is the fourth or fifth time you've incorrectly put words in my
mouth. What is your problem?

rg
Are you ****ing kidding me?

Did you NOT say this?
"And fourth, the regs leave a lot of stuff unspecified. If you go by the
regs in the current situation, you end up over KVNY at 11,000 feet, at
which point you're supposed to initiate your descent. But there's no
published hold at KVNY (to say nothing of the fact that KVNY is not an
IAF for any approach to KVNY) so you have no choice but to improvise at
that point."

I am not putting words in your mouth. It is clearly there for all to
see. Your actions in that case are specified regardless of whether you
lost comms or not. That is why I had to post to msmaniac.

You did not know what to do at a clearance limit if there was no
published hold. Or are you going to refute that?

Newps wrote:


Tim wrote:



I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an
airport that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to
do an approach. He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a
clearance limit when there are no published holds at that point. I
could not believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to
do. That is why I posted it.

I hope you are not saying to do this at any airport.


As a controller at a class C I want you down. We will be watching you
on radar. ATC has no idea what your estrimated time is to any fix in a
radar environment. Don't sit anywhere and hold. If it's VFR pick an
airplane to follow and land, just like your NORDO in the pattern. If
your IMC pick an approach and land.


That sounds good to me. I was not advocating holding - I was pointing
out that making stuff up was not correct - the situation is addressed
and there is no need to improvise as the OP stated. My point was that
this is the procedure one is supposed to follow nordo or not when you
reach a clearance limit with no other instructions and no published hold
at that limit.

In article , Tim
wrote:

The OP was confused about what to do at a clearance limit - regardless
of radio contact.

Not so. My original question was: "what should I have done if I'd been
in IMC and lost comm before they changed my routing?

This is the fourth or fifth time you've incorrectly put words in my
mouth. What is your problem?

rg

Ron Garret wrote:
In article , Tim
wrote:


Ron Garret wrote:

In article , Tim
wrote:



The OP was confused about what to do at a clearance limit - regardless

^^^^^^^^^

of radio contact.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Not so. My original question was: "what should I have done if I'd been
in IMC and lost comm before they changed my routing?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the fourth or fifth time you've incorrectly put words in my
mouth. What is your problem?

rg

Are you ****ing kidding me?


No. Please re-read the exchange and pay particular attention to the
highlighted passages.

rg


There is no difference on what one should do at a clearance limit and no
published hold whether or not you are nordo - you do the same thing.
Hold on the course you were flying to the fix.

In article ,
Tim wrote:

Ron Garret wrote:
In article ,
Tim wrote:


So you are saying that one has to change operating rules based on the
route of the flight.


No, I am not saying that. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth?


I don't have to - they are right he
"Because it's a different route. The circumstances are different. What
one does when flying to FUL may or may not apply when flying to VNY."

Do you speak English as your native language? Do not you understand the
difference between "one HAS TO change the [general] operating rules"
and "[the specifics of] what one does [in situation X] MAY OR MAY NOT
apply [in situation Y]"?

If you did not mean that, then please explain to my why you have two
different examples and two different scenarios?

The first scenario is the one I am interested in. I raised the second
merely to point out that there is not a universal consensus that blindly
following the rules is always the right thing to do.

It is your clearance limit because that is where you filed to and where
you want to land.


No, it was my clearance limit because that is where I was cleared to.


Yes, I understand that. And they gave you that clearance limit because
that is what you requested from them - when you filed. That is the end
of your flight and they gave you a clearance to there. It is not a
clearance to hold there is it? Because what you are arguing is that you
really only have a clearance to circle the airport every time you get
a clearance that starts with "cleared to xxx airport" and ends in
"...direct."

No, that is not what I am arguing. I have never said any such thing
(because that's clearly ridiculous).

I am beginning to lose my patience with you.

You are expecting that every time you fly to an airport
you are going to fly to the airport, but somewhere along the line a
controller is going to lead you to an IAF, the final approach course, or
some other way get you to land.

No. In fact, the only reason I'm asking the question is because I'm NOT
expecting what you say I am expecting.

If your clearance limit is an airport, what makes you think you can't
execute an IAP and land?

Probably the same thing that makes you think that the moon is made of
green cheese. (You don't think the moon is made of green cheese? That
would be my point.)

rg

In article ,
Tim wrote:



This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the
airport then the IAF?

Because that's what the regs say. You are the one saying I should be
following the regs.

You should go to an IAF, then land at your
clearance limit - which is the airport.

An odd bit of advice from someone who believes that one should follow
the regs and not improvise.

Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport, unless
on an IAP?

I enter the airport's identifier into my GPS and hit the "direct" button.

When would you ever use the airport as a fix and not the destination?

When it is my clearance limit. Are we done with the pop quiz now?

that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach.


That is what the regs say to do.

So how in the world would I navigate to the airport using just a VOR?

Non-sequitur. I filed /G. But let me ask you: how would YOU fly direct
from SNS to an IAP for KVNY using just a VOR?

The only way to do it is to use an IAP.

Wow, you really are clueless, aren't you. Are you not aware of the
existence of IFR-certified GPS? (Are you even a pilot?)

Right, but you were also unaware of what to do when reaching a clearance
limit with no more instructions and no published hold.

You should look up the aphorism about people who live in glass houses.

rg