Daryl Hunt Rides Again (was [Admin] us.military.army FAQ M1A4 - Special Post -)

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
says...

"David W" wrote in message
...
DM's LAW story, the A-12's @ Groom Lake,
the FB-4's in Turkey, P-38's in the 1950's ? I missed these, anyone
care to fill me in or point me in the right direction please ?

They'll just screw it up so let me.

How nice of you to make the claims again.
I wouldn't want to mis-quote you.


I talked with an Oklahoma Nation Guard that said his unit trained at FT
Hood
with the 82nd in the early 80s. It was an exercise of sorts. He said
that
the Guards got a bit rambuntious and were getting mighty close to the
82nd
until an 82nd place a LAW round just to the left (or right) of a Guards
head. At that point, things were more than a bit intense and they
stopped
the exercise. I do know a few of the Guards were more than a bit cocky
and
that 82nd troop probably did the best lesson they ever learned. Is it
true?
You take it up with the OKGuards, not me. But it sounds like it could
have
happened.

Does this pass the smell test ?
That live ammo was on an exercise ?
Troops shooting at(near) troops on purpose ?

Was it something like this type of exercise, EDRE when the brigade is on
DRB1, and the troops do not know if it is practice or for real? Would live
ammo be used then? Is this what he is referring to, possibly?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...army/82abn.htm
10th paragraph down "An EDRE is nothing more than a practice deployment
which involves the DRF 1 Task Force and possibly the DRF 2 and DRF 3 as
well. When the EDRE is called, no one knows if it is practice or real. The
units go through the entire alert, recall, and deployment procedures as if i
t is real. "

snip

"Jay T. Beatty" wrote in message
link.net...

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
says...

"David W" wrote in message
...
DM's LAW story, the A-12's @ Groom Lake,
the FB-4's in Turkey, P-38's in the 1950's ? I missed these, anyone
care to fill me in or point me in the right direction please ?

They'll just screw it up so let me.

How nice of you to make the claims again.
I wouldn't want to mis-quote you.


I talked with an Oklahoma Nation Guard that said his unit trained at
FT
Hood
with the 82nd in the early 80s. It was an exercise of sorts. He said
that
the Guards got a bit rambuntious and were getting mighty close to the
82nd
until an 82nd place a LAW round just to the left (or right) of a
Guards
head. At that point, things were more than a bit intense and they
stopped
the exercise. I do know a few of the Guards were more than a bit
cocky
and
that 82nd troop probably did the best lesson they ever learned. Is it
true?
You take it up with the OKGuards, not me. But it sounds like it could
have
happened.

Does this pass the smell test ?
That live ammo was on an exercise ?
Troops shooting at(near) troops on purpose ?

I'd say your "source" was bull****ting you.


As for the A-12s, they were there in the 70s. I Physically saw them
lined
up in a nice little row on the tarmak along with support equipment
(power
units). What they were doing there, I have no idea.

IIRC there were what a half dozen or so A-12 built in the early 60's ?

Funny that you could see them in the 1970's when they had been retired
and
placed in storage in 1968.

BTW, how many did you see there at Groom Lake ?


According to McDonnel Douglas the original designator for the F-4 was
FB-4.
A designator is used to identify the mission of the Air Craft. Due to
the
Salt Treaties, the B designator had to be dropped as well as the B
designator from the F-111. With the Designator of FB, they were
counted
as
Bombers. Both Aircraft did Nuclear Payload duty before and after the
designator was dropped. The F-4 was a Nuclear Bomber in Incirlik
Turkey
at
one time before the disignator had to be dropped. That made it a FB-4
since
it was NOT in it's Fighter role. Incirlik is just minutes from many
major
installation in the old Soviet Union when the bird is hitting Mach 2
and
doing a bomb toss. The next Salt treaty put an end to having them
there.

Lets see, I can't find a thing in McD's documentation showing where the
F-4 Phantom II was ever called the "FB-4"
And the funny thing is no on ever gave a similar designation to any of
the
other tactical fighter/bombers that were roled to carry
"instant sunshine".
Like the F-100 and F-105, or the F-104's



I stated that I saw a flight of Aircraft flying overhead just outside
of
Denver that had twin booms. I was not too old then. I asked my Uncle
(he
retired from Lackland as the QA Chief as a GS-16 and 33 years) and he
told
me they were P-38s. Now who do I believe, an 33 year veteran from an
AF
Base dating back to 1942 or do I believe a bunch of Net Nannies that
think
that if it's not on the internet, it can't possibly exist. Oh, and
let's
not leave out that one supposedly contacted the Active Duty AF and
asked
if
the P-38 was in the inventory in the 50s. Considering that there was
NO
Active runways with fighters on them for a few hundred miles, chances
are
they came from Buckley Air Field and the Actives would have no
knowledge
of
what was there.

Does this even sound right ?
That the USAF wouldn't know what aircraft an Air Guard unit has ?



As for the P-38s being in Korea, according to an old Fighter Jock from
Korea, they were there and were replaced on a one to one basis due to
combat
losses with the new P-80s. Of course, most of those losses were
ground
mishaps. I even posted one URL (I don't care to netnanny to find it
again)
where the P-38 was used for recon in Korea. Makes sense considering
the
P-38 could cruise at over 400 mph at 40,000 feet. Physics dicates
that
the
Mig-15 couldn't get there in time to stop it. It would be long gone
before
the Mig could get the altitude. Once again, your buddies like to just
rave
on about history that isn't on the Internet as most History isn't.
But,
if
it's not on the Search Engines, it just can't exist.

Funny thing is the USAF doesn't have any units with P-38 by 1947.
All had converted to either P-51, P-47 or to jets.

Funny how all those "P-38" that were combat losses didn't get recorded
by
the USAF. How come none are listed in any roster of aircraft losses
during
the Korean war ?
I would direct you to the following link.

http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmkor/korwald_afct.htm

Can you explain why they list no P-38 losses ?

Oh, and FWI, any remaining P-38 were redesignated F-38 in 1949.....

And no there arn't any of those listed either.


Now, go ahead and swarm away. But read the Charter before you do and
know
that your swarming is license for the trolls to exist in here in the
levels
that they are. Why not, it's accepted practice.

The only troll(ette) around here is you daryl.

As much as I hate to say it, in Daryls defense haven't any of you guys
done a live fire exercise? Of course though those times that I have been
involved in them, we were shooting at targets near other soldiers (by near
I
mean to say 100-200 meters away, but never any closer)but not at other
soldiers.

Actually, I'm finding several references on the net where training with live
ammo is indicated.
http://www.abcactionnews.com/stories...training.shtml

"~Nins~" wrote in message
news:kG2Ib.696416$Fm2.599288@attbi_s04...

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
says...

"David W" wrote in message
...
DM's LAW story, the A-12's @ Groom Lake,
the FB-4's in Turkey, P-38's in the 1950's ? I missed these, anyone
care to fill me in or point me in the right direction please ?

They'll just screw it up so let me.

How nice of you to make the claims again.
I wouldn't want to mis-quote you.


I talked with an Oklahoma Nation Guard that said his unit trained at
FT
Hood
with the 82nd in the early 80s. It was an exercise of sorts. He said
that
the Guards got a bit rambuntious and were getting mighty close to the
82nd
until an 82nd place a LAW round just to the left (or right) of a
Guards
head. At that point, things were more than a bit intense and they
stopped
the exercise. I do know a few of the Guards were more than a bit
cocky
and
that 82nd troop probably did the best lesson they ever learned. Is it
true?
You take it up with the OKGuards, not me. But it sounds like it could
have
happened.

Does this pass the smell test ?
That live ammo was on an exercise ?
Troops shooting at(near) troops on purpose ?

Was it something like this type of exercise, EDRE when the brigade is on
DRB1, and the troops do not know if it is practice or for real? Would
live
ammo be used then? Is this what he is referring to, possibly?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...army/82abn.htm
10th paragraph down "An EDRE is nothing more than a practice deployment
which involves the DRF 1 Task Force and possibly the DRF 2 and DRF 3 as
well. When the EDRE is called, no one knows if it is practice or real. The
units go through the entire alert, recall, and deployment procedures as if
i
t is real. "

No, I was involved in several EDREs when I was in the 82nd and you always
knew it as not for real when you got to the unit and they didn't hand out
live ammo.

"Jay T. Beatty" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article .net,
says...

As much as I hate to say it, in Daryls defense haven't any of you
guys
done a live fire exercise? Of course though those times that I have
been
involved in them, we were shooting at targets near other soldiers (by
near I
mean to say 100-200 meters away, but never any closer)but not at other
soldiers.

I have, Ft Benning and other places.
And the idea that someone would delibetatly shoot a LAW at other
soldiers
in a training exercise is absurd.

I have had sabot shot over my position by mistake at a range.
They shut the place down for two days to investigate.

Yeah, the whole LAW thing is a bit out of control.

"nAt Fort Bragg, N.C., home of the 82nd Airborne Division, the Army has been
ordered to protect trees for the red-cockaded woodpecker by restricting
bivouacking, live fire and digging of foxholes.
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...le.cfm?Id=1181 "

Well, going to go look up info on these LAW thingees.




--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
says...




According to McDonnel Douglas the original designator for the F-4 was
FB-4.
A designator is used to identify the mission of the Air Craft. Due to
the
Salt Treaties, the B designator had to be dropped as well as the B
designator from the F-111. With the Designator of FB, they were counted
as
Bombers.

No. The F-111 and FB-111 were basically two different a/c. Visually similar,
but different. And both were on nuc alert duty at various times and places.
Upper Heyford and Pease, for example.


Both Aircraft did Nuclear Payload duty before and after the
designator was dropped. The F-4 was a Nuclear Bomber in Incirlik Turkey
at
one time before the disignator had to be dropped. That made it a FB-4
since
it was NOT in it's Fighter role. Incirlik is just minutes from many
major
installation in the old Soviet Union when the bird is hitting Mach 2 and
doing a bomb toss. The next Salt treaty put an end to having them
there.

No. The F-4 stopped pulling alert nuclear alert duty in Incirlik because
they were replaced by F-16's. The 401st at Torrejon, to name one wing.

Pete

"Jay T. Beatty" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"~Nins~" wrote in message
news:kG2Ib.696416$Fm2.599288@attbi_s04...

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
says...

"David W" wrote in message
...
DM's LAW story, the A-12's @ Groom Lake,
the FB-4's in Turkey, P-38's in the 1950's ? I missed these,
anyone
care to fill me in or point me in the right direction please ?

They'll just screw it up so let me.

How nice of you to make the claims again.
I wouldn't want to mis-quote you.


I talked with an Oklahoma Nation Guard that said his unit trained at
FT
Hood
with the 82nd in the early 80s. It was an exercise of sorts. He
said
that
the Guards got a bit rambuntious and were getting mighty close to
the
82nd
until an 82nd place a LAW round just to the left (or right) of a
Guards
head. At that point, things were more than a bit intense and they
stopped
the exercise. I do know a few of the Guards were more than a bit
cocky
and
that 82nd troop probably did the best lesson they ever learned. Is
it
true?
You take it up with the OKGuards, not me. But it sounds like it
could
have
happened.

Does this pass the smell test ?
That live ammo was on an exercise ?
Troops shooting at(near) troops on purpose ?

Was it something like this type of exercise, EDRE when the brigade is on
DRB1, and the troops do not know if it is practice or for real? Would
live
ammo be used then? Is this what he is referring to, possibly?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...army/82abn.htm
10th paragraph down "An EDRE is nothing more than a practice deployment
which involves the DRF 1 Task Force and possibly the DRF 2 and DRF 3 as
well. When the EDRE is called, no one knows if it is practice or real.
The
units go through the entire alert, recall, and deployment procedures as
if
i
t is real. "

No, I was involved in several EDREs when I was in the 82nd and you
always
knew it as not for real when you got to the unit and they didn't hand out
live ammo.

Ah ok, well that's good. The article didn't stipulate if live or not. I
got to thinking that if they didn't know it wasm't for real that things
could get really messy.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:36:41 GMT, "Pete" wrote:

No. The F-4 stopped pulling alert nuclear alert duty in Incirlik because
they were replaced by F-16's. The 401st at Torrejon, to name one wing.

Pete

Actually, the 401st stopped pulling nuclear alert at Incirlik as a
result of the war between the Greeks and Turks over Cyprus in 1976.
The alert airplanes were stood down, the deployed squadron flew out
and returned to Torrejon. Throughout Turkey all nuclear alert aircraft
were downloade and US weapons people remove strike enable plugs from
all the weapons.

Three weeks later, I led the 613th TFS redeployment back to Incirlik.
We were front row viewers of phase two of the Cyprus war which ran for
an additional week or so. Regular rotation of the 401st F-4 squadrons
resumed after that, but the nuclear alert was never restored.

It had nothing to do with the replacement by F-16s which didn't take
place until about five years later.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"~Nins~" wrote in message
news:VL2Ib.691098$Tr4.1721457@attbi_s03...

Actually, I'm finding several references on the net where training with
live
ammo is indicated.
http://www.abcactionnews.com/stories...training.shtml


Infiltration courses under machine gun fire have been used since WW1. The
guns are on fixed mounts and cannot be depressed. The entire thrust of the
thread was that OKARNG and 82nd soldiers used live fire in opfor
engagements.

Two words: Total Bull****.

--
Dave Thompson
(The Other)

"Mary Shafer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:18:41 GMT, Tank Fixer
wrote:


As for the A-12s, they were there in the 70s. I Physically saw them
lined
up in a nice little row on the tarmak along with support equipment
(power
units). What they were doing there, I have no idea.

IIRC there were what a half dozen or so A-12 built in the early 60's ?

Funny that you could see them in the 1970's when they had been retired
and
placed in storage in 1968.

The "storage" was the ramp at AF Plant 42. They were pretty easy to
see, at least in later years, sprayed with some sort of white stuff.
I've saw the A-12s regularly. You could even snap photos while flying
near, but not over, Plant 42.

However, I have nothing to add regarding the rest of this except
agreement with Tank Fixer.

Except you just disagreed with him in his assessment that the A-12 could not
possibly be there. You and I both know they were. What you saw was them
putting them into mothballs. I saw them prior to that just before they were
mothballed.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:36:41 GMT, "Pete" wrote:

No. The F-4 stopped pulling alert nuclear alert duty in Incirlik because
they were replaced by F-16's. The 401st at Torrejon, to name one wing.

Pete

Actually, the 401st stopped pulling nuclear alert at Incirlik as a
result of the war between the Greeks and Turks over Cyprus in 1976.
The alert airplanes were stood down, the deployed squadron flew out
and returned to Torrejon. Throughout Turkey all nuclear alert aircraft
were downloade and US weapons people remove strike enable plugs from
all the weapons.

Three weeks later, I led the 613th TFS redeployment back to Incirlik.
We were front row viewers of phase two of the Cyprus war which ran for
an additional week or so. Regular rotation of the 401st F-4 squadrons
resumed after that, but the nuclear alert was never restored.

It had nothing to do with the replacement by F-16s which didn't take
place until about five years later.

I stand corrected. We started getting -16's at Torrejon in early 82. Summer
'83 and summer '84 were two deployments to Incirlik to certify the Wing on
conventional and nuc operations respectively. I had assumed (incorrectly, I
guess) that they also took over the nuc alert function.

Pete