Restricting Glider Ops at Public Arpt.

The Southern Eagles Soaring made a formal complaint to the local FAA
FSDO in ATL concerning the LaGrange-Callaway airport(LGC)restricting
glider flying to weekends only and unwillingness to rent hangars to
club members.

The LGC board claimed to the FAA that these restrictions are in the
interest to safety.

The FAA told the airport authority that they could not restrict the
gliders from operating on weekdays and that they also must rent us
hangars. We are still attempting to accomplish the latter. The FSDO
further directed the club and the airport board to *jointly* draft
glider operating procedures at LGC. To this end, the airport board
refused to communicate with the club and unilaterally implemented
procedures that, although allows gliders to fly any day of the week,
created other restrictions to glider operations which, in effect, make
it damn difficult to fly at all. The FSDO (in all its bureaucratic
ineptitude) took the word of the airport manager that the glider club
was involved in the derivation of the rules, and approved the rules(in
writing). When apprised of being misled, the FSDO did agree to hear
the glider club's concerns about specific rules. But in the end, the
FAA did not change what they had already approved under a false
assumption of mutual agreement.

The most disconcerting and onerous rule is that the glider club must
post a person posessing at least a private pilot rating at the
intersection of the airport's crossing runways to observe for any
landing or departing traffic and give an "all clear" radio call before
a glider tow can commence take off. Keep in mind that LGC is an
uncontrolled airport. Also realize that SES is a small club and that
it is normally difficult to schedule a tow pilot and have a wing
runner, much less now have to need for someone to bake in the sun all
day standing at the intersecting runways. As far as the need for such
an observer, there was a grand total of seven(7) non-glider flights
all day at the airport last Saturday.

The airport manager claims the need for the observer is for safety
(note that no such need existed when we only flew on the weekends).
We made the point that I.A.W. the Airport Assurances Agreement that
LGC is bound for accepting federal money that all aviation activity is
be allowed to operate on the same fair and reasonable terms without
discrimination. No other operator at LGC is required to post an
observer in order to operate at LGC. Not a single accident or incident
been attributed to the operation of gliders during the six and
one-half years the SES has been flying at LGC. At no time did any
representative of the FAA come down to observe glider operations
before approving these procedures.

Does anyone out there in the glider community have any experience with
this sort of situation? Where do we go from now? We sincerely
request any information or guidance in this matter. Private responses
(if so desired) may be addressed to:

Responses alluding to the need to negotiate or get along are not
necessary as such tactics have been tried and exhausted. This has
been an ongoing concern since 1998 when the airport board notified the
club by official letter that they "decided unanimously to terminate
glider operations at LGC". The club has since tried every conceivable
way to educate the airport authority about our operations and convince
them that we do not constitute a hazard to other aviation activity at
LGC to no avail. Now it seems we can't convince the FAA of that,
either. Help!

What is it about flying, and gliding in particular, that seems to attract
the attention of so many paranoid control freaks?

This thread is about an ignorant airport manager who feels an overpowering
need to "control" the gliding activities at his airport to insure "safety",
but these same people can be found inside our sport serving as officers and
board members of clubs and associations. They rarely actually fly gliders
or show any talent for doing so. Instead, they spend their energy
controlling the activities of others who do fly.

This unfortunate combination of arrogance, ignorance, paranoia and a type A
personality is deadly for the enjoyment of our sport. These individuals
contribute little to actual safety since they don't understand the problem.
They take the position "just don't fly" or "fly less - it'll be safer" or
"only fly basic trainers" since this is the only "solution" that they can
comprehend. They will often be heard espousing the bizarre idea that
handling qualities are inversely related to performance so the "safest"
gliders always have the lowest performance.

Sorry for the rant. I hope you don't know anyone resembling the
description above.

Bill Daniels

"Bill Daniels" s comments read:

Sorry for the rant. I hope you don't know anyone resembling the
description above.

Oh how I wish it were true

Sorry for the rant. I hope you don't know anyone resembling the
description above.

Bill Daniels


As I wrote my club board today in closing

"Oh yeah, remember, this is supposed to be fun...."

Frank Whiteley

This thread got me thinking of examples I have seen that draw attention t=
o our sport in a negative manner, my list would include:

1.) Towrope dropped on active and left
2.) No radio in glider to announce pattern
3.) Rope break drills with no pre-announcement
4.) Pilots who cannot remove their ship from the active without the tow-=
out gear, tow-vehicle, full flight debrief and bathroom break.
5.) The "5 minutes to hookup" that turn into control check, data-load in=
to logger, finding water tube, seatbelts, etc., etc..


Not to say these happen all the time, but in the world of aviation...our =
sport seems to be the only one that camps on the active for extended peri=
ods of time. And some pilots seem to think this is no big deal.

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
This thread got me thinking of examples I have seen that draw attention t=
o our sport in a negative manner, my list would include:

1.) Towrope dropped on active and left
2.) No radio in glider to announce pattern
3.) Rope break drills with no pre-announcement
4.) Pilots who cannot remove their ship from the active without the tow-=
out gear, tow-vehicle, full flight debrief and bathroom break.
5.) The "5 minutes to hookup" that turn into control check, data-load in=
to logger, finding water tube, seatbelts, etc., etc..


Not to say these happen all the time, but in the world of aviation...our =
sport seems to be the only one that camps on the active for extended peri=
ods of time. And some pilots seem to think this is no big deal.

Good points, Stewart. #5 is one of my pet peeves too.

Bill Daniels

(rjciii) wrote
The Southern Eagles Soaring made a formal complaint to the local FAA
FSDO in ATL concerning the LaGrange-Callaway airport(LGC)restricting
glider flying to weekends only and unwillingness to rent hangars to
club members....
The club has since tried every conceivable
way to educate the airport authority about our operations and convince
them that we do not constitute a hazard to other aviation activity at
LGC to no avail. Now it seems we can't convince the FAA of that,
either. Help!

You're not going to want to hear this, but I have only one thing to
tell you. Move to someplace where you're wanted. There's really no
other solution. In all likelihood, you're going to lose this fight.

It's a matter of federal regulation that publicly funded airports are
to be open to all users participating in recognized aeronautical
activities, without discrimination, subject to reasonable regulations
as necessary for safety. The definition of recognized aeronautical
activity is fairly broad; it includes soaring, ultralights of all
sorts, skydiving, and pretty much any aeronautical activity regulated
by the FAA in any way.

On this basis, I have seen many groups (and been part of one) that
have brought the FAA into the picture when airport management has
tried to drive the activity off the airport. In every case, the
eventual outcome was that the operation moved to another airport or
shut down within a few years at most.

I suspect this is because the airport managers that try to drive out
the glider pilots, ultralight pilots, and skydivers are basically
ignorant and authoritarian. The same kind of people dominate the FAA,
and are pretty much unwilling to really go to bat against their own
kind.

Therefore, while the FSDO folks can't openly support the airport
manager in a flat-out prohibition, they can allow him to make rules
'for safety' that will cripple the operation. It won't help that most
of them will not know a thing about gliders, and might actually
consider such prohibitions reasonable. Even if they do bring in a
token glider 'expert' - like the glider-rated inspector at our FSDO -
odds are he will (a) still be a typical fed and (b) won't be much of a
glider expert. Would you believe the only glider-rated inspector at
our home FSDO, the guy who does all the initial CFI rides in gliders,
has never trained a glider student, never flown glider XC, and has
less than 50 hours in gliders?

So basically, you can expect that the airport manager will be able to
make rules at will, and that the FAA will not stop him. That's just
the way it is. And don't count on any substantive help from SSA,
either.

The only real chance you have of winning the battle is political. You
need to win over the airport board and get them to rein in or replace
the airport manager. If you fail to do this, you will be gone from
the airport by the end of the decade. Count on it.

Michael

(Michael) wrote:

Move to someplace where you're wanted. There's really no
other solution. In all likelihood, you're going to lose this fight.

You are correct, sir--I don't like what you have to say, but I do
appreciate your candor.

Our club relocated to its present airport because it was
uncerimoniously run out of another "public" airport. So when do we
stop running away? What's to say that the next airport we operate out
of doesn't have a change of heart and decide to disciminate as well?

The current location suits our club's needs very well considering half
our members are from N. Atlanta and half from Alabama. LGC is
equidistant and sufficiently south of the ATL Class B airspace. It
also has lots of open grass infield and long runways. No, I think
we'll stand our ground and fight for our rights. I suspect the
airport board is counting on the contrary.

It is hilarious (not) that the situation you describe concerning your
local FAA's glider "expert" is exactly what we are dealing with here.
Matter of fact, everything you describe is deja-vu except for the bit
about the airport board firing the airport manager--here they're all
in bed together. We have bent over backwards for four years now, all
the while attempting every way possible to persuade the airport
authority to change their minds. But persuasion is only effective if
one is dealing with receptive and reasonable people. We truly are not.
What we got for our effort is a letter stating that "the board has
unanimously decided to terminate glider operations..." Now is time
for the gloves to come off. At least we intend to put up the best
fight we can, hope for some support, and simply not go timid into the
night! Too bad it seems thus far that we cannot rely on the FAA to
enforce their own regulations.

Politics??? Anybody out there have any expertise on how to blackmail
someone?

rjciii wrote:

Anybody out there have any expertise on how
to blackmail someone?

All I know is what I hear from the politicians:

"Never get caught with a live boy, or a dead girl."




Jack

(rjciii) wrote
Our club relocated to its present airport because it was
uncerimoniously run out of another "public" airport. So when do we
stop running away? ... No, I think
we'll stand our ground and fight for our rights.

I'm a Texan by choice, and I can certainly respect that. Remember the
Alamo. But also remember that the defenders of the Alamo died there,
to a man.

I suspect the
airport board is counting on the contrary.

I suspect the airport board is counting on driving you out with
untenable regulations, complaints, and anything else they can think
off. I doubt they're counting on you giving up the fight.

I've seen more than one such fight. Sometimes they drag out for
years, but in the end the airport board always wins.

It is hilarious (not) that the situation you describe concerning your
local FAA's glider "expert" is exactly what we are dealing with here.

It's how the organization works - it's inherent to the system.

Do you also believe me now when I say you will get no substantive help
from SSA? The reason is simple - they might like to help, but they
really have no capability to fight the FAA in any way. They don't
want to admit that, because it will hurt fundraising efforts.
Therefore, they will urge compromise - meaning accepting whatever
rules the airport manager dreams up and the FAA approves.

Matter of fact, everything you describe is deja-vu except for the bit
about the airport board firing the airport manager--here they're all
in bed together.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I've seen the airport
board fire the manager - I only said that this would be the only way
for you to win. I don't expect it to happen.

Too bad it seems thus far that we cannot rely on the FAA to
enforce their own regulations.

But then we never could. Even the inspector general of the DOT admits
that.
http://www.avweb.com/pdf/brinell_report.pdf

Michael