Dear Fellow Sailplane Racers

"And we cannot ignore that
safety is an important issue. Masak, Carpetyan, Bowman... We lose one
every other year or so. "

Is there any rule issue that would have had any concievable impact on
the three fatal accidents you reference? I know that's not the point
you were trying to make, but I am curious.

wrote:
"And we cannot ignore that
safety is an important issue. Masak, Carpetyan, Bowman... We lose one
every other year or so. "

Is there any rule issue that would have had any concievable impact on
the three fatal accidents you reference? I know that's not the point
you were trying to make, but I am curious.

Let's look at a few events that have prompted rules or procedures to
avoid another occurrance.
Note that we don't easily keep score of accidents that did not happen
as a result of safety related rule changes. It is hard to measure the
absence of something like this.

1)Masak(and Mcquigg before him who we luckily did not lose)- Prompting
attention to currently proposed ELT rule.
2)Carpetyan- We don't know what happened to Gene.
3)Bowman-Out of this loss came the procedure for critical assembly
check.
4)Pilot Unnamed(he knows who he is) Low finish with wingtip toughing
the ground leading to "50 foot rule".
5)Open Class Pilot Unnamed- Landed in blinding rainstorm using GPS
because he "had to get a finish". This led to the safety finish that
permits CD to put temporary large finish cylinder in place so pilot can
get a safe finish and leave the area.
6)Countless pilots making redline plus starts(writer included) This, in
part led to current low energy cylinder start.

There are many more like this as you would imagine.
UH

Not sure if this question is considered thread drift...but
I figure someone smarter then I is watching the thread
and can answer.

The reason given for keeping contest numbers on gliders
in the era of no start/finish gate is for safety while
thermalling and having a means to identify the others
sharing the core. I imagine leeches fullly support
this concept as well.

If this is the case...why the need for the large numbers/letters?
I would think a more discretelly sized race number
would be plainly visible while thermalling, but much
harder to see at a distance by leeches.

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Kilo Charlie wrote:
OK I'll "bite back" BB.

I would prefer the statement to be "you cannot legislate good judgement".
There is a huge difference between rules and laws that protect life by
protecting the human body e.g. seat belts and parachutes and those that
make an attempt to force people into making the "correct" choice.

OK, I'll bite: what is this huge difference, and how does it apply to
contest rules? We also make traffic rules about stopping at traffic lights
and driving on the right side of the rule, which seem to be safety
related.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Interesting response Eric. My statement had no underlying meaning as you
appear to imply. I am pretty certain having spent a fair amount of time
talking to John at a contest in Uvalde several years ago that he and I would
agree on more than we disagree. One thing for sure is that I agree with his
point that I don't wish this to degenerate into another arguement over
finish lines.

Re the specific complaint....BB used some examples that included things that
help protect our pink little bodies from the elements of destruction....my
point was that they are very different from pure rules whose only purpose
are to prevent you from doing something stupid and provide no benefit in and
of themselves beyond that.

I'd be the first to say that there are PLENTY of traffic laws (since that
seems to be the theme here) that attempt to force people into making the
correct judgements......speed limits, DUI laws, etc. If everyone would
always have good judgement we wouldn't need them......that's your point
right?

Where we disagree is that the traffic rules are a poor analogy. Basically
everyone drives. It is required to be employed or to get to school, buy
food, etc. Nobody is forcing not even a single pilot into racing. It is
not necessary to get a job or to obtain food and I'm still looking for the
girls that think its cool.

All that I am asking and I think that John is asking is that we present both
sides and be reasonable about evaluating each proposal. This format is a
poor one for having these discussions. I would like to think given the
chance to sit down together that we would find common ground much faster
than appears from following these threads.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
Not sure if this question is considered thread drift...but
I figure someone smarter then I is watching the thread
and can answer.

The reason given for keeping contest numbers on gliders
in the era of no start/finish gate is for safety while
thermalling and having a means to identify the others
sharing the core. I imagine leeches fullly support
this concept as well.

If this is the case...why the need for the large numbers/letters?
I would think a more discretelly sized race number
would be plainly visible while thermalling, but much
harder to see at a distance by leeches.

Definitely thread drift Stewart but a good question nonetheless.

When I first began racing I shamelessly followed some of the big guns and
came away with this conclusion.....it is pretty much impossible to stay with
someone that knows how to go fast for very long at all. In fact one of the
biggest lessons that I have learned racing that you can't fly another
persons race. Even when trying to stay with a pack these days I find it
only frustrates me. Maybe thats because I'm still not very good at going
fast or maybe its because I'm too independent but when presented the
opportunity to fly with someone much better it seems a good idea to learn as
much as you can about how they fly faster.

From a practical standpoint I can't see everyone taking off their contest
numbers and going with smaller ones anyway. I would even go one better and
say that I'd like to see the US adopt the collision markings that some of
the European gliders have in order to be able to avoid midairs. There are
numerous times that I've heard someone call out that a pilot came close when
they pulled into a thermal out in the middle of course. The response is
always the same..."I didn't even see you".

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
I would think a more discretelly sized race number
would be plainly visible while thermalling, but much
harder to see at a distance by leeches.



Hey, now wait just a minute, leeches deserve a fighting chance and to be
safe while leeching. If you have small contest numbers then the leeches
might have to resort to using binoculars. Do you have any idea how hard it
is to fly safely while looking through binoculars?

Next thing you know there'll be a rule banning binoculars.

bumper

OK. That is funny! Thanks bumper.

Better yet. Perhaps (he says - fearing it may actually happen) the SSA
should require the use of FLARM traffic alert devices. They would increase
safety in contests- AND they would allow us leachers to know where all the
nearby gliders are!!! But unfortunately, the FLARM units are not being sold
in the US due to liability issues. I do wish we could use them here in the
US but hope the SSA never mandates them or anything like them.

Actually, I firmly believe that in 10 years we will be able to see all
nearby traffic on our moving map screens. That will (in my opinion) greatly
improve safety and make soaring contests more fun. It would be much more
like a sailboat race where you can see where your competitors are. Is that
a bad thing? I'm sure the traditional contest pilots will say NO WAY, but
I think it would be fun. Leaching is not inappropriate in sailboat racing.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"bumper" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
I would think a more discretelly sized race number
would be plainly visible while thermalling, but much
harder to see at a distance by leeches.



Hey, now wait just a minute, leeches deserve a fighting chance and to be
safe while leeching. If you have small contest numbers then the leeches
might have to resort to using binoculars. Do you have any idea how hard it
is to fly safely while looking through binoculars?

Next thing you know there'll be a rule banning binoculars.

bumper

I think I don't agree with you re leeching. It is very much like match
racing sailboats. One guy looks for advantage, the other guy covers. Be
in the top 2 at a good close race and you will see what I mean.
All this said, the Rules Subcommittee is very concerned with how cost
affects participation.
I did not know Flarm was not in US due to liability issues. Interesting
perspective- thanks
UH

Even better. 10 years from now we'll all have doppler radar thermal
detectors. As with GPS it will be impossible to keep them out of racing
once everyone has bought one for their fun flying. Then leeching and
gaggling will completely disappear. No point in leeching if the thermal
is already shown on your heads-up display. Safety will improve
dramatically, except for the danger to personal health of pilots during
rules discussions.

John Cochrane
BB

Even better. 10 years from now we'll all have doppler radar thermal
detectors. As with GPS it will be impossible to keep them out of racing
once everyone has bought one for their fun flying. Then leeching and
gaggling will completely disappear. No point in leeching if the thermal
is already shown on your heads-up display. Safety will improve
dramatically, except for the danger to personal health of pilots during
rules discussions.

John Cochrane
BB