Solid state horizons

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:4222c622@darkstar...

I think I agree with you that partial panel (NB&A) can be done safely
with training in some conditions. Smooth air, or mild and even
perhaps moderate turbulence (with practice) one can fly up into
a cloud and "top" a thermal. And there are places where the "G"
airspace allows pilots to legally practice this. In a medium performance
glider, if one only goes a few hundred feet up into the clouds,
popping out the bottom in a spiral is unlikely to exceed Vne.

On the other hand, I would be quite concerned if I was closed
out while on top of a wave. There was a 2-32 that crashed
with 2 pax under circumstances sounding like this.
Oct 10, 1997 out of Warner Springs. I'd sure love to hear what the
"ocean/atmosphere scientist glider pilot" saw in person that day.
Anybody know who that is?

I don't think the
pilot had a T&B, but I'm honestly not sure it would have made any
difference. IFR in rotor partial panel is a whole different animal.
I was in moderate to severe turbulence at night south of tahoe
IFR once, and it took every ounce of energy to keep the thing upright
(while losing 3000 feet at full power) with the full panel.
Partial panel I think I would have been Mr. Splatt.



If you've flown by airline in and out of Denver, you know how turbulent it
gets. Night IFR in winter along the east slope of the Rockies pretty much
is wave rotor. You get hammered. It can be non-stop unusual attitude
recovery. I can remember spending over two hours banging the control stops
trying to keep the blue over the brown while holding over Estes Park.

I think we disagree about partial panel in rough air. It's not unusual for
turbulence to tumble the attitude gyro leaving you on NB&A. When it gets
rough, I transition to partial panel so if the VG goes, I still have
control. For me, NB&A is PRIMARY attitude control in rough air.

And yes, I've hit a downburst on an ILS. It was an embedded thunderstorm
that Omaha Approach didn't tell me about. Full power at Vx just managed to
hold me two dots below glidepath. (That day airborne weather radar looked
very appealing but I didn't have it.)

So, what does all this have to do with Solid State Horizons in gliders? I
agree that some kind of standby attitude indication could be a lifesaver in
a glider - provided the pilot has taken training to use it correctly. My
choice would be a T&B, preferably solid state so it would use less power and
spin up quickly when needed.

A horizon (VG) wouldn't give useful pitch information unless the pitch
display was amplified for the tiny pitch changes that produce large airspeed
changes in gliders. I'd be using airspeed for pitch information anyway. On
the other hand, tiny changes in bank produce large changes in rate of turn
in gliders so a 2 minute T&B would be way too sensitive. Gliders need a one
minute or less turn needle.

These PDA based MEMS ADAHRS gizmos look interesting since you already have
the PDA.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

It's not unusual for
turbulence to tumble the attitude gyro leaving you on NB&A.

That's the reason why, here in Switzerland, the needle is required
equipment for cloud flying, whether you have a horizon or not. Flying
safely by needle, ball and airspeed is required skill for safe cloud flying.

Stefan

Gerhard Wesp wrote:

Stefan wrote:
As far as I know cloud flying is allowed in England, Sweden,
Switzerland and Poland.
Add Danmark and Germany. There may be still others.
Add Austria.
Add Checz Republic.

André

Bill Daniels wrote:
changes in gliders. I'd be using airspeed for pitch information anyway.

On gliders vario provide a bit more sensitive/reliable indication.

the other hand, tiny changes in bank produce large changes in rate of turn
in gliders so a 2 minute T&B would be way too sensitive. Gliders need a one
minute or less turn needle.

Yes, and speed will make also significant difference. It's not sure
that you can do a 110km/h 1 spoon turn if you can do a 90km/h 1 spoon
turn...
We do instrument training on SF25 Falke and engine rpm will add an
additional variable to this multidimensional game

/Jancsika

At 15:30 28 February 2005, André Somers wrote:
Gerhard Wesp wrote:

Stefan wrote:
As far as I know cloud flying is allowed in England,
Sweden,
Switzerland and Poland.
Add Danmark and Germany. There may be still others.
Add Austria.
Add Checz Republic.

André


Add Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (presumably
the Isle of Man too?).

"Jancsika" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:
changes in gliders. I'd be using airspeed for pitch information anyway.

On gliders vario provide a bit more sensitive/reliable indication.

the other hand, tiny changes in bank produce large changes in rate of
turn
in gliders so a 2 minute T&B would be way too sensitive. Gliders need a
one
minute or less turn needle.

Yes, and speed will make also significant difference. It's not sure
that you can do a 110km/h 1 spoon turn if you can do a 90km/h 1 spoon
turn...
We do instrument training on SF25 Falke and engine rpm will add an
additional variable to this multidimensional game

/Jancsika

I think it worthwhile to point out that an instrument ticket is the most
difficult pilot rating to get. Most pilots would agree that it's more
difficult than the Airline Transport Pilot rating. Simply put, it's VERY
technical and requires a superb sense of how an aircraft will respond to
tiny control inputs.

Anything less than 100% proficiency and the safety margins are unacceptable.
Keep that in mind if you are thinking of slapping a T&B in your glider and
going cloud flying.

That said, IF you have the training, proficiency and equipment, and operate
in a part of the world where it is permitted, cloud flying in a glider is
not only very effective, it's also a lot of fun as our non-USA based friends
are pointing out.

In a lot of the world, particularly Central and Eastern Europe, the
prevailing weather conditions means that if your are to be a pilot at all,
flying in clouds will be part of the experience. Their pilot training
reflects this. (Our overseas friends will sometimes be astonished that we
permit night flight without an instrument rating.)

In the USA, we are spoiled with vast areas of "Severe Clear" weather that
persists pretty much year-round. As a consequence, our training for Private
Pilot Glider doesn't address instrument flight at all.

Bill Daniels

basils27 wrote:
Has anyone had any experiences, good or bad, with the various solid
state
horizons on the market. Are they stable, is the response quick
enough, are
they reliable.

(Probably only likely to get answers from UK pilots as the rest don't
cloud
fly)


Basil,

Please see my website for Solid state horizons. The Manual can be
downloaded and it explains the technology. The system includes a
sensor and a display unit. The Display will show a horizon and a
compensated compass.

www.craggyaero.com

In article ,
Bill Daniels wrote:

I can remember spending over two hours banging the control stops
trying to keep the blue over the brown while holding over Estes Park.

Cabin crew crosseyed, passengers leaving with muffled
comments about the captain of the "Vomit Comet",
guys walking by scratching their noses with their middle finger...
:P....had your mask on just to avoid the smell
wafting in from under the door...|,,,,....

I think we disagree about partial panel in rough air. It's not unusual for
turbulence to tumble the attitude gyro leaving you on NB&A. When it gets
rough, I transition to partial panel so if the VG goes, I still have
control. For me, NB&A is PRIMARY attitude control in rough air.

I think the only part we disagree on is this: I won't willingly
fly IFR in conditions that would tumble an AI, or involve over 60 degrees
of bank. I won't fly this willingly regardless of any instrumentation on the
panel (including a sky pointer). And I especially wouldn't want
to do this in a slick glider that will go right to Vne if I miff it up.
If I had your experience, would I do this? I don't know. And
I'm guessing I never will.

I do know that if I'm ever above wave and undercast closes
below me, I'm not gonna consider it a "normal" procedure to descend
through it...


And yes, I've hit a downburst on an ILS. It was an embedded thunderstorm
that Omaha Approach didn't tell me about. Full power at Vx just managed to
hold me two dots below glidepath. (That day airborne weather radar looked
very appealing but I didn't have it.)

You didn't like it, either, did you?

So, what does all this have to do with Solid State Horizons in gliders? I
agree that some kind of standby attitude indication could be a lifesaver in
a glider - provided the pilot has taken training to use it correctly. My
choice would be a T&B, preferably solid state so it would use less power and
spin up quickly when needed.

Yes. Absolutely true. I've been puzzled when seeing some very nice
gliders with nice panels but no tiny T&B. And some of the pilots of these
craft tell me of landing at sunset or smoke/haze or low vis
and getting in (minor) trouble. If I had my own glider I'd
surely put some kind of T&B in it. I dunno the battery draw of these,
which maybe gets back to the idea of solar cells...

A horizon (VG) wouldn't give useful pitch information unless the pitch
display was amplified for the tiny pitch changes that produce large airspeed
changes in gliders. I'd be using airspeed for pitch information anyway. On
the other hand, tiny changes in bank produce large changes in rate of turn
in gliders so a 2 minute T&B would be way too sensitive. Gliders need a one
minute or less turn needle.

Agreed. ASI is so sensitive for pitch that is fine. And a full
attitude indicator, although nice for roll and transitions, is
probably unlikely to make its way into a non-motor glider panel.


These PDA based MEMS ADAHRS gizmos look interesting since you already have
the PDA.

There are remarkable advances in this stuff, as long as when
the roll rate exceeds 90 deg per second, the software doesn't
barf and reboot, right?


Bill Daniels



--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd wrote:

And I especially wouldn't want
to do this in a slick glider that will go right to Vne if I miff it up.

Here in JAR country, for a glider to become cloud rated, the airbrakes
must keep it below Vne at 45 degrees pitch down. This gives a lot of
room for error. (Consequently, the DG1000 is cloud rated while the Duo
Discus is not, if I recall correctly.)

surely put some kind of T&B in it. I dunno the battery draw of these,
which maybe gets back to the idea of solar cells...

It draws some current, but not too much. After all, you don't need to
keep it turned on the whole day.

Stefan

On 28 Feb 2005 08:57:10 -0800, (Mark James Boyd) wrote:

In article ,
Bill Daniels wrote:


A horizon (VG) wouldn't give useful pitch information unless the pitch
display was amplified for the tiny pitch changes that produce large airspeed
changes in gliders. I'd be using airspeed for pitch information anyway. On
the other hand, tiny changes in bank produce large changes in rate of turn
in gliders so a 2 minute T&B would be way too sensitive. Gliders need a one
minute or less turn needle.

Agreed. ASI is so sensitive for pitch that is fine. And a full
attitude indicator, although nice for roll and transitions, is
probably unlikely to make its way into a non-motor glider panel.


Hello
If you would rely on ASI for holding correct pitch in an glider equal to
an Bergfalke or swifter, eg. L/D26, you would be in deep trouble quite
fast. You must use an uncompensated variometer, the ASI is way to slow
to show the small changes in pitch that is necessary to see, if you want
to have a nice ride IMC.

best regards
Christer Bergström
Viker
Sweden