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Anti Collision Warning



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 22nd 04, 11:33 PM
George Vranek
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Default Anti Collision Warning

A low cost ACW based on GPS will be tested in Switzerland. See www.flarm.com

George


  #2  
Old April 26th 04, 07:53 PM
Robert Ehrlich
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George Vranek wrote:

A low cost ACW based on GPS will be tested in Switzerland. See www.flarm.com

George


Numerous attempts were made in this domain. My brother proposed the
design of a such device as a project for students working on a
degree in electronics. Two members of my club designed and made
a cheap system which in not an anti-collision device but just a
position reporting system, but could easily converted into an anti-
collison system. But the problem with all these attempts is to
find an available radio frequency for the data transmission. The
above cited device, according to the WEB page, uses a frequency
in the "SRD-band". I don't know what it is, but the same page
says that its usage is free ON THE GROUND. I doubt that the same
will be true when used for air to air transmission, I am quite
sure that in France at least this is forbidden, as for any
frequency not explicitly allowed for air to air transmission.
  #3  
Old April 27th 04, 11:57 AM
Marcel Duenner
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Robert Ehrlich wrote in message ...
George Vranek wrote:

A low cost ACW based on GPS will be tested in Switzerland. See www.flarm.com

George


Numerous attempts were made in this domain. My brother proposed the
design of a such device as a project for students working on a
degree in electronics. Two members of my club designed and made
a cheap system which in not an anti-collision device but just a
position reporting system, but could easily converted into an anti-
collison system. But the problem with all these attempts is to
find an available radio frequency for the data transmission. The
above cited device, according to the WEB page, uses a frequency
in the "SRD-band". I don't know what it is, but the same page
says that its usage is free ON THE GROUND. I doubt that the same
will be true when used for air to air transmission, I am quite
sure that in France at least this is forbidden, as for any
frequency not explicitly allowed for air to air transmission.


This is true for almost anywhere in Europe. But the restrictions do
not have technical reasons AFAIK.
Therefor it should not be a real problem to get it legalised for this
special purpose. Nowadays anything is possible if you just say the
word "safety". The makers are pretty confident in this.

Marcel

Why walk when you can soar?
  #4  
Old April 27th 04, 07:15 PM
Robert Ehrlich
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Marcel Duenner wrote:
...
Therefor it should not be a real problem to get it legalised for this
special purpose. Nowadays anything is possible if you just say the
word "safety".


It is a real problem. Laws are made by politicians, and politicians
only care about voters. Soaring pilots are a such small minority of
voters that politicians don't care about them.
  #5  
Old April 27th 04, 07:56 PM
tango4
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I don't see the benefit of any anti collision systems where two pilots
already know that the other is nearby and #still# collide!


Ian


  #6  
Old April 28th 04, 04:05 AM
Mike Borgelt
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:56:42 +0000 (UTC), "tango4"
wrote:

I don't see the benefit of any anti collision systems where two pilots
already know that the other is nearby and #still# collide!


Ian



Which is true of all the mid airs in gliders in Australia as far as I
know. If they didn't specifically know about each other the pilots
certainly had good reason to believe other gliders were around.

Mike Borgelt
  #7  
Old April 28th 04, 07:33 PM
Ramy Yanetz
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Robert Ehrlich wrote in message ...
Marcel Duenner wrote:
...
Therefor it should not be a real problem to get it legalised for this
special purpose. Nowadays anything is possible if you just say the
word "safety".


It is a real problem. Laws are made by politicians, and politicians
only care about voters. Soaring pilots are a such small minority of
voters that politicians don't care about them.


Devices like this could also be used on GA aircrafts. Even polititions
fly, and I'm sure they will be happy to know the plane they are on
rely on GPS technology rather than a 40 years old radar technology.
Hopefully one day these devices will replace transponders on ALL
aircrafts and will be required on all aircrafts. Then the madness of
mid airs will end.

Ramy
  #8  
Old April 28th 04, 07:41 PM
Ramy Yanetz
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"tango4" wrote in message ...
I don't see the benefit of any anti collision systems where two pilots
already know that the other is nearby and #still# collide!


Ian


These devices should be capable to tell you if you are in a collision
course, not just warn you of a nearby aircraft. Earlier someone posted
a link to a new device which also calculate collision course while
thermaling! If you thermal too close to someone else it should warn
you. This is what we need. How many more midairs do we need to
acknowledege this is a real problem and not just a rare thing like
some still claim?

Ramy
  #9  
Old April 29th 04, 04:08 AM
tango4
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"Ramy Yanetz" wrote in message
om...
Robert Ehrlich wrote in message

...
Hopefully one day these devices will replace transponders on ALL
aircrafts and will be required on all aircrafts. Then the madness of
mid airs will end.

Ramy


No it wont! More than half of the midairs recently involved aircraft where
the pilots were flying together, knew that the other aircraft was there and
*still* collided. All that anti collision systems would have added to these
situations would have been a bit of total aircraft mass.

The problem we currently have is that in spite of knowing that other
aircraft are very close by pilots are getting it wrong and banging in to
each other.

We need to review -
Thermal joining techniques
Thermal leaving techniques
co-thermaling practices
co-operative flying practice.

Read Paul Adriance's account of his accident earlier this month, it wasn't
caused by GPS or any other form of instrumentation, weather or anything else
and no form of instrumentation would have changed the outcome. The pilots
simply lost situational awareness and in a few moments it all went very
wrong.

Ian



  #10  
Old April 29th 04, 09:15 AM
Ramy Yanetz
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Default

See my other reply below. These devices should be capable to warn you of
imminent collision even while thermaling, not just warn you of nearby
aircraft. And if they currently don't, they will in the near future. It
should not be too difficult to compute collision courses.

Ramy


"tango4" wrote in message
...

"Ramy Yanetz" wrote in message
om...
Robert Ehrlich wrote in message

...
Hopefully one day these devices will replace transponders on ALL
aircrafts and will be required on all aircrafts. Then the madness of
mid airs will end.

Ramy


No it wont! More than half of the midairs recently involved aircraft where
the pilots were flying together, knew that the other aircraft was there

and
*still* collided. All that anti collision systems would have added to

these
situations would have been a bit of total aircraft mass.

The problem we currently have is that in spite of knowing that other
aircraft are very close by pilots are getting it wrong and banging in to
each other.

We need to review -
Thermal joining techniques
Thermal leaving techniques
co-thermaling practices
co-operative flying practice.

Read Paul Adriance's account of his accident earlier this month, it wasn't
caused by GPS or any other form of instrumentation, weather or anything

else
and no form of instrumentation would have changed the outcome. The pilots
simply lost situational awareness and in a few moments it all went very
wrong.

Ian





 




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