Is it easier now?

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Is it easier now?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/27/04 6:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: EqT%b.633877$X%5.197935@pd7tw2no


"ArtKramr" "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National

Why is the ANG being put down by so many? They provide a very
usefull
reserve function and in many cases are regular force members that have
returned to civilian life. In Canada we call these units the reserves.
They are now being used by the CF on many peace keeping and peace making
missions. Most of our reserves are Army types but there is also an air
and
naval element reserves. I think they do a dammed fine job.
Ed



That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.

No, your comments regarding the Guard have been even worse. ISTR you just
recently labled the Guardsmen who served during WWII as "shirkers", did you
not? Those "shirkers" who were struggling to survive the Bataan Death March,
the combination of disease and Japanese bullets at Bloody Buna, and were
some the first troops ashore at Normandy? Stop weaseliing away by trying to
put the blame on Powell--you are the one who keeps taking his quote out of
context in regards to the WWII period.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"D. Strang" wrote in message
news:41Q%b.6171$m4.4277@okepread03...
"ArtKramr" wrote

We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.

There were very few enlisted troops with high school diplomas, and those
commissioned sometimes only had a couple of years, and no degree in WW#2.

The price of paid later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well
documented. Sadly.

Not true. There were more people killed in WW#2 from accidents than
combat. The first thing that happened after Monty hit the beach in
Sicily, was a wave of US bombers out of Libya bombed the **** out of
them. I'd call that sloppy, and probably ****ing stupid.

Hey, what about Malmedy? It was bad enough that Pieper pulled the machine
gunning of PW's, but you also had the USAAF (inluding one raid by Art's
beloved B-26's) hit the town not once but *twice* while it was in allied
hands! Strangely, this would have been during the time when Art has claimed
he was sent forward to man the trenches--now why would the USAAF have sent a
bombadier forward to do that instead of manning his aircraft? One wonders
how proficient ol' Art really was at his specialty if that was the case...

Brooks

D. Strang wrote:
"ArtKramr" wrote

We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.

There were very few enlisted troops with high school diplomas, and those
commissioned sometimes only had a couple of years, and no degree in WW#2.

The price of paid later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well
documented. Sadly.

Not true. There were more people killed in WW#2 from accidents than
combat. The first thing that happened after Monty hit the beach in
Sicily, was a wave of US bombers out of Libya bombed the **** out of
them. I'd call that sloppy, and probably ****ing stupid.

You call friendly fire an accident? If they got creamed, it was deliberate.
Unfortunately, the wrong target got hit.

But it was no accident....it was what they were aiming at.

George Z.

D. Strang wrote:
"ArtKramr" wrote

That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.

In the narrow context of Vietnam before the lottery system. Before about
1965, no one joined the NG or Reserves out of civilian life, they joined it
after active duty.....

Oh, really? Lots of guys joined the National Guard in the '30s in order to do
something for the country without having to go away from home for very long
periods of time and to make a few extra bucks for the time they spent at it.
How do I know? A friend of mine did exactly that, and he wasn't the only guy in
his NG outfit. And yes, they were all activated in early '42 and were gone
until after the war was over.

You need to stop making so many definitive statements about stuff you know
nothing about.

.....Most people took their draft, and ended up in Germany
or Korea (and no one asked about a ****ing exit-strategy). Most served,
got the clap, and were home to momma before anyone knew they were
gone.

You know, the more you talk, the more I realize how little you know about those
days and what went on then. Maybe you can convince Viet Nam vets that you know
it all, but you can't convince us old farts who date back to before Korea and
WWII. You don't seem to know squat about those days, so I suspect you either
were still in diapers way back then, or maybe your Mama was still blowing your
nose for you to keep your upper lip from getting chapped.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing, but bull****ting the public is something
else. Why don't you give it a rest?

George Z.

In article abV%b.6216$m4.5326@okepread03,
on Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:55:31 -0600,
D. Strang attempted to say .....

"Tank Fixer" wrote

Did I say they all had joined in the 1950's ? No, that some had.

Actually, you said "many" had. Now you say "some." We're probably getting
closer to the truth, that "very few" had.

Lots and lots, is that better ?
I only have my experiance with that unit.

I noticed you ignored my request for some national statistics you implied
you had.

Could it be you have none ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article ,
on 28 Feb 2004 04:51:25 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

Subject: Is it easier now?
From: Tank Fixer
Date: 2/27/04 8:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
on 27 Feb 2004 14:11:00 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

Subject: Is it easier now?
From: Tank Fixer
Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: t

In article ,
on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

Subject: Is it easier now?
From: Tank Fixer
Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: t

In article ,
on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....


"Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
whatever.
All
the
Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
Hardly
the
equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)

Yes, I guess your right.

I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.

Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
penensula
in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.

I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
Not real soldiers, right Art ?



At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?

No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.

Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in the
early 70's ?


As Colin Powell said:
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."



OK, so we know what the good general said.

I was asking you however.


I agree with General Powell.

Does your hatred for the Guard extend to those from WW2 ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
on 28 Feb 2004 04:51:25 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

Subject: Is it easier now?
From: Tank Fixer
Date: 2/27/04 8:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
on 27 Feb 2004 14:11:00 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

Subject: Is it easier now?
From: Tank Fixer
Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: t

In article ,
on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

Subject: Is it easier now?
From: Tank Fixer
Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: t

In article ,
on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....


"Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
whatever.
All
the
Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being
fired.
Hardly
the
equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)

Yes, I guess your right.

I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during
1942/43.

Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
penensula
in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.

I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
Not real soldiers, right Art ?



At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?

No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.

Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in
the
early 70's ?


As Colin Powell said:
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their
country."



OK, so we know what the good general said.

I was asking you however.


I agree with General Powell.

Does your hatred for the Guard extend to those from WW2 ?

He has already said it does, per his comment on 21 FEB in this newsgroup:

"Back then the reserve and the guard were pathetic jokes and laughing stocks
for all of us. As I have said before, if you want to go to war, then go to
war and don't hand us this reserve or National Guard stuff. Tell a member of
the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what a great job the reserve is
doing to defend our country sitting in the USA nice and safe while he may
not live to see the end of this day."

Anybody want to bet that Art would not be willing to go to a reunion of
surviving Bataan Death March vets and tell them they were "pathetic jokes
and laughing stocks"? Or maybe one of the divisional reunions for the 29th
ID, 36th ID, 32nd ID, 28th ID, etc.? I doubt it. It is unbelieveable that
even after being corrected by numerous posters he clings to this strange
belief that Guardsmen and Reservists were doing weekend drills back home
during WWII...when in fact the Guard had been completely mobilized well
before he even got his sorry butt drafted ( I just noticed that in that same
message he indicated he was "called up the day he turned eighteen"...sounds
like a draftee to me, despite his repeated clamoring that he was a
"volunteer").

Brooks



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
D. Strang wrote:
"ArtKramr" wrote

That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.

In the narrow context of Vietnam before the lottery system. Before
about
1965, no one joined the NG or Reserves out of civilian life, they joined
it
after active duty.....

Oh, really? Lots of guys joined the National Guard in the '30s in order
to do
something for the country without having to go away from home for very
long
periods of time and to make a few extra bucks for the time they spent at
it.
How do I know? A friend of mine did exactly that, and he wasn't the only
guy in
his NG outfit. And yes, they were all activated in early '42 and were
gone
until after the war was over.

No, the entire National Guard was mobilized during the period beginning in
September1940 through early spring of 1941, following congressional
authorization in August 1940. The congressional vote that kept them on
active duty beyond one year was decided by a single vote in August 1941,
something for which George Marshall had worked hard to make happen. Any
competent history of the US mobilization effort will verify this. There
essentially was *no* National Guard during the period following mobilization
and until the war ended--states had to instead rely upon other militia
organizations made up of those too old or too young to serve in the federal
military services. It took a great deal of effort to "recreate" the Guard
after the war.


You need to stop making so many definitive statements about stuff you know
nothing about.

Based upon your above SNAFU, you might want to take heed of your own advice.

snip


There's nothing wrong with not knowing, but bull****ting the public is
something
else. Why don't you give it a rest?

Again, take heed yourself...

Brooks


George Z.

Art wrote:
That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.

Check back Art, the first time it appeared in this go round it did not appear
in quotation marks and you didn't attribute it to anyone in your message.
Only after you were called on it did you attrubute the words to Powell.
You still haven't admitted that it applied to a limited time frame not two plus
centuries if Militia.

Rick Clark

Got a question for you Art.
Name a politian who became President and had served in the National Guard?

Down


Down





Clue Field Artillery



And he was a Democrat also



He said among other quotes "Never kick a fresh turd on a warm day."



Harry S Truman was the guy.

And IIRC he used influence to get elected Captain of his battery. The story
goes that he called afew favors too .

Rick Clark