glider ride business - practical? bad idea?

What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your thoughts.

(For the USA)

As PIC, you'll need a Commercial Pilot Certificate, an endorsement in
your logbook for self-launch, and a current Flight Review. I bet
you've got these.

3 takeoffs and landings in glider category within the previous 90 days
to carry passengers.

Carrying passengers (or giving instruction) for hire in your aircraft
will now require a 100 hour inspection (airframe hours, not the
engine) for your motorglider as well as an Annual Inspection, although
if you time it right you can use the annual to restart your 100 hour
inspection clock, but not the other way around since a 100 hour can be
done by an A&P, but the annual must be done by an A&P with IA
(Inspection Authority.)

Next increase in your expenses will be insurance. Explain to your
broker what you plan to do with your motorglider and get a quote. Be
honest because you want complete coverage in case of an incident or
worse.

You may also need to get "premise insurance" to cover you if your ride
customers trip over a tiedown rope or gopher hole and injure
themselves somewhere on the airport. You are putting your personal
assets on the line when you carry passengers, especially for hire. I
use Costello Associates -- they are efficient and it is good to
support the SSA Group Insurance Plan. See the back cover of your
"Soaring" magazine. You are a member of the SSA, right?

So your business plan for giving rides will need to include the
slightly increased expenses for staying current, the 100 hour
inspections, advertising, signs, the extra insurance premium (if any),
and the cost of burp bags. See the April 2008 issue of "Soaring"
magazine for an article on "Giving A Better Glider Ride."

Build your fees based on your expenses, and then add in the "extra
cash" you hope to make. Crunching my numbers and to make a profit, I
must charge $119. for a 20 minute glider ride. You may be surprised
how much you have to charge, and be more surprised when folks
willingly hand over the cash for the unique experience.

Consider getting a credit card account, as folks will spend more using
the plastic.

Check with your state Sales Tax folks, and your local county or town
to register as a business. In some states, rides for recreation (not
for education) can be taxed.

Form a LLC or a Corporation for another layer of protection (but with
no guarantees.)

Some FAA regulations you need to be aware of:

91.111 No formation flight while carrying passenges for hire.

91.303 FAA's definition of aerobatics. It is NOT the 60 / 30 degree
rule - read carefully to the end of the paragraph - it can be a trap!

91 307 Parachutes required if you do the mildest aerobatics. This is
the 60 / 30 degree rule.

Check with your airport management on how they will view you now as a
Commercial / FBO offering rides for hire, rather than a private
citizen. If you do not talk to them in advance, then you may hear
from them when you put up your signs. Find out now how they will
regard you if you begin a Commercial operation, and if they demand
that you carry higher levels of liability insurance. I speak from
experience, from my early days operating a glider ride business in
Miami, Florida! That's part of the reason I moved to Marfa, Texas,
where the local government leaves you alone as long as you are safe.

Now think about how you are putting your assets on the line when you
hold yourself out to the public offering commercial glider rides.
Consider more preventative maintenance. Many of us give rides safely
and in compliance with the FAA rules and the Insurance Policy
requirements, but go into the enterprise with eyes wide open.

When you get up and running, list your business on the SSA website /
"Where To Fly" map.

You will enjoy sharing the flying experience with the public, and
making friends or future pilots.

Fly safe, do business "by the book", and good luck!

Burt
Marfa Gliders Soaring Center, west Texas
(offering Glider Rides year-round)

There is a state Representative in Maine who has this as a business on the
side. He has two motor gliders and he has a substitute pilot who flies
for him when he can't be available. This man is not a member of SSA, nor
is his business registered there, and his site is not on the SSA map of
places to fly -- there is not such a one in the state of Maine. He
advertises locally and has brochures at the airport.

At the moment I can't remember either his name or at which airport he
flies, but I can easily find out from a contact in Maine. If you are
interested in pursuing this, send me a private email.



at At 07:21 06 February 2009, tienshanman wrote:

What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn
a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a
larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
thoughts.




--
tienshanman

On Feb 5, 11:21*pm, tienshanman tienshanman.
wrote:
What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn
a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a
larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
thoughts.

--
tienshanman

I love these "toss them out questions" on r.a.s. with no information.
Assuming you are in the USA, assuming you have a commercial license
and own a type-certificated motor glider then Burt's post has lots of
great information. I'll focus on the motorglider stuff.

There are not a lot of two seat motorgliders around, it's either going
to be a Stemme or ASH-25Mi at the high-end, a Grob SL or one of many
lower (soaring) performance touring motorgliders like a Grob 109,
Katana etc. There may be significant issues depending on what
motorglider you are talking about. What exact motorglider do you have?
How much experience operating it do you have? Both to understand it's
performance, practical operating limitations and costs?

Where are you based? Is it a great soaring location? With fantastic
scenery and captive/close by potential customers? What mix of flights
do you hope to provide? Longer actual soaring flights or 30 minute
quick rides? Burt mentioned aerobatics (which I assume is popular with
ride passengers), you are more likely to be limited there with most
motorgliders.

I'm hoping you have a touring style motorglider, but the problem with
some motorgliders, especially the retracting mast type, will be that
you may quickly increase engine hours which (depending on the glider
and it's current condition) could significnalty depreciate the value
or the glider and significantly increase maintenance costs. Many of us
motorglider pilots think in the tens or so minute of engine time
giving many hours of soaring. Changing to a profile that is more climb
and sled ride would significantly change the cost basis.

What will that 20-30 minutes or more of engine tach time per flight
cost you in routine maitnence, depreciation and set aside for non-
routine maintenance? On the other hand there are always the
possibility of doing this seriously, being successful and subsidizing
(post tax) some flying.

Then there are the performance and practical limitations. Which
depending on the type and your experience would vary from non-issues
to extreme limitations. Many motorgliders are underpowered and
relatively heavy. Can you accommodate typical full weight adult
passengers? Can you achieve safe climb rates with this load under
typical density altitude conditions you will need to fly under? What
climb AGL do you expect to need? 4,000'? 6,0000'? Can you meet the
climb rate and profile on high density/high temperature (what about
engine cooling at that required climb performance)? Can you operate
the motorglider safely from your base without additional ground crew?
etc.

I would hope these are all obvious things to any motorglider pilot -
but completely non-obvious to average Joe passenger and we absolutely
need to operate with the paying public with a wide safety margin.
We've had some unfortunate accidents in joy rides that in hindsight
(yes, sorry everything is easy in hindsight) involved low pilot
experience or other risks that should not have been inflicted on
unsuspecting passengers. Adding a motorglider into the mix may
increases the risks, so some thought needs to be made about that and
how to mitigate/minimize any risk increase.

On the business side are you up for interruptions to your personal
schedule, being interrupted by phone calls or having to return calls,
willing to spend money on website and other advertising and run in the
red for a while to build any business? It just seems that this sort
of thing is not something you undertake lightly "for spare cash".

Darryl

Use the Web Luke.

Google'ing "Maine glider ride" first hit is the company you mention.

http://www.spiritsoaring.org/

Seem pretty experienced folks and appear to be flying an Grob 109
touring motorglider.

There are other web site claiming to offer conventional glider rides
in Maine. Not sure why they would not want to be in the SSA index.

Darryl


On Feb 6, 8:00*am, Nyal Williams wrote:
There is a state Representative in Maine who has this as a business on the
side. *He has two motor gliders and he has a substitute pilot who flies
for him when he can't be available. *This man is not a member of SSA, nor
is his business registered there, and his site is not on the SSA map of
places to fly -- there is not such a one in the state of Maine. He
advertises locally and has brochures at the airport.

At the moment I can't remember either his name or at which airport he
flies, but I can easily find out from a contact in Maine. *If you are
interested in pursuing this, send me a private email.

at At 07:21 06 February 2009, tienshanman wrote:



What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn
a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a
larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
thoughts.

--
tienshanman

The tourist industry in Maine is probably where he gets all his business.
That being true, spending money with SSA probably seems not a good
investment from that point of view. I doubt that they have any interest
in anything except selling a unique experience (airplane flights around
the area would not be a draw). I'd guess they never fly except to carry
passengers.

Hardly a soaring activity -- no ridges or waves, and passengers don't
want a lot of circling, so thermalling is out. This appears to be
completely disconnected from the soaring community and its point of view.

They could very likely give good answers to all the business questions
Burt and others raise.


At 18:22 06 February 2009, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Use the Web Luke.

Google'ing "Maine glider ride" first hit is the company you mention.

http://www.spiritsoaring.org/

Seem pretty experienced folks and appear to be flying an Grob 109
touring motorglider.

There are other web site claiming to offer conventional glider rides
in Maine. Not sure why they would not want to be in the SSA index.

Darryl


On Feb 6, 8:00=A0am, Nyal Williams wrote:
There is a state Representative in Maine who has this as a business on
th=
e
side. =A0He has two motor gliders and he has a substitute pilot who
flies
for him when he can't be available. =A0This man is not a member of
SSA,
n=
or
is his business registered there, and his site is not on the SSA map
of
places to fly -- there is not such a one in the state of Maine. He
advertises locally and has brochures at the airport.

At the moment I can't remember either his name or at which airport he
flies, but I can easily find out from a contact in Maine. =A0If you
are
interested in pursuing this, send me a private email.

at At 07:21 06 February 2009, tienshanman wrote:



What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to
earn
a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of
a
larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
thoughts.

--
tienshanman

On Feb 6, 11:22*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Use the Web Luke.

Google'ing "Maine glider ride" first hit is the company you mention.

http://www.spiritsoaring.org/

Seem pretty experienced folks and appear to be flying an Grob 109
touring motorglider.

There are other web site claiming to offer conventional glider rides
in Maine. Not sure why they would not want to be in the SSA index.

Darryl

On Feb 6, 8:00*am, Nyal Williams wrote:

There is a state Representative in Maine who has this as a business on the
side. *He has two motor gliders and he has a substitute pilot who flies
for him when he can't be available. *This man is not a member of SSA, nor
is his business registered there, and his site is not on the SSA map of
places to fly -- there is not such a one in the state of Maine. He
advertises locally and has brochures at the airport.

At the moment I can't remember either his name or at which airport he
flies, but I can easily find out from a contact in Maine. *If you are
interested in pursuing this, send me a private email.

at At 07:21 06 February 2009, tienshanman wrote:

What do you guys think: is it feasible for one guy with a 2 seat
motorglider to offer glider rides as a part time business; just to earn
a bit of spare cash? Do you know anyone doing this who is not part of a
larger commercial soaring operation or schoool? Would appreciate your
thoughts.

--
tienshanman

The glider ride biz owner was recently in Boulder looking for ride
pilots for next summer.

Frank

"tienshanman" wrote in message
...
.. Currently I am thinking of
moving to the People’s Republic of Boulder or the Ft. Collins, or
buying property at a flight park somewhere; something along those lines
(advice in terms of location would also be greatly appreciated).
--
tienshanman

tienshanman

You really should check out Minden, NV if you love the mountains and superb
soaring conditions. Winters are relatively mild and year round outdoor
recreation opportunities abound. Can't think of a place I'd rather be.

Sam Whiteside, a glider pilot too, is the go-to guy for real estate info
here.

bumper
Minden, NV

On Feb 7, 1:08*am, tienshanman tienshanman.
wrote:
I must say that I am pleasantly stunned by the competent advice on this
forum - thanks to all you for your thorough comments, especially Burt
and Daryll. To Daryll I apologize for not offering more info about
myself. I am a little bit embarrassed to admit that my soaring
experience is, well, limited. Here’s the story if anyone is interested.
I am a US citizen who has been living/working in Kazakhstan since 1995.
Kind of got stuck here, married here to a beautiful Ukrainian woman and
have 3 small children. We live just outside of Almaty (2 mill pop) in a
small canyon in the Tien Shan Mountains. There are 10k ft peaks all
around us and a vast wilderness area to the south. One reason I have
stayed here so long is that I love being so close to big mountains and
all of the outdoors sports possibilities they offer. I have worked here
in telecoms and mining.

Many years ago while in the Army in Germany I started hang gliding and
have flown for a couple of decades, then I began in parallel to fly
paragliders. However, the bag wing for me is more of a means to get
down fast off of peaks rather than a flying machine. Sure, I thermal
around in the thing for while when possible but compared to a hang
glider or sailplane it never really felt like flying. On the contrary,
it’s more akin to being in an aerial lawn chair. But heh, it gets me
from the 3000 meter peak behind my house (3 hr ascent) to the field in
front of my house in 20 min, which beats the hell out of walking down
and trashing my knees. Throughout my flying “career” I have been
peripherally interested in sailplanes. In Germany there is a glider
club in practically every village and I can recall being in big
thermals in the alps with hg’s, bag wings and several sailplanes all in
one big gaggle like a flock of buzzards in Texas hovering over some road
kill. Once in Austria on a gorgeous day in early June I counted 15
different “aircraft” thermal ling at once and almost had a mid air
collision with a baggy while counting. Every so often my interest in
sailplanes would peak a bit and I would do a sailplane ride, but I was
frankly not very impressed by being cooped up in a plastic solarium for
20 mins on a sled ride to the ground. Then I’d look around the airfields
and the obvious hassle, time commitment, bureaucracy, *and expense all
turned me off as well. I’m not much of a joiner and didn’t *care much
for the European club thing.

But I am older now and thought I’d give sailplanes one more shot. Among
other considerations I need a safer way to fly. So last summer I spent 8
days at a Russian glider school where 2 gnarly instructors in their 50s
ran me through the ringer for 9 days, from 5 am to 10 pm every day,
with about 15 flights/day. Endless landing patterns, spins, stalls,
etc. On day 4 I soloed the Blanik and flew alone after that. Toward the
end I was thermalling the thing around for 3 hrs at a shot and could
have flown much longer had the bad seat and parachute ergonomics
(military parachute!) not killed the small of my back! I Finally being
able to soar a sailplane and stare straight up into an approaching
cloud base turned out to be incredible and to make a long story short I
am now officially addicted. Because I have started to fly sailplanes
rather late in life I want to compress as much of it into my life as is
possible. I am now trying to figure out how I can structure my life to
make this happen. More than likely we will return to the US this summer
and I have spent hours researching places to live which have the best
combination of access to good flying, good schools, a critical mass of
interesting people and culture and good weather. One thing I do not
want to do is drive anything more that about 15 – 20 min to a glider
field and I intend to buy a self launching glider if some sort. I have
a lot of other sports interests and children so travelling big distance
is out. So is being dependent on tow planes. Currently I am thinking of
moving to the People’s Republic of Boulder or the Ft. Collins, or
buying property at a flight park somewhere; something along those lines
(advice in terms of location would also be greatly appreciated). Burt: I
would be happy to live in Marfa but after a 12 drive through west Texas
last year my wife ruled that idea out! So out of all of these
ruminations emerged my off the wall question about glider rides. I had
been simply thinking of options for how to integrate sailplanes into my
life, perhaps even make small business out of it to give me that
illusion that I would be gainfully employed. Burt’s comments brought me
down to earth however, and it’s now clear that I am probably not suited
to the commitment necessary for this business. Also, I am fairly set on
buying a SL’ing glider and not a motorglider and it does not appear that
a twin seat SL’ing sailplane is the best machine for that sort of
business. So thanks again for putting up with my neophyte question and
for the very good advice on this subject and perhaps I’ll have the
pleasure of meeting some of you when I come back home. Burt I am dying
to come to Marfa and fly there. My brother now lives in El Paso so that
gives me the excuse to get there. In the meantime I am looking forward
to going back to the Russian glider school in May for 9 more days of
flying when I’ve been told I’ll get to practice out landings and do
some modest cross country flights. I cannot wait.

--
tienshanman


So welcome to the addiction. Here are some things I'd encourage you to
do...

Work out where you are going to end up in the USA. Don't rush any
purchase decisions until you are settle in to that location and
establish contacts with the local soaring community.

For a while at least suspend belief in the need for a motorglider.
Especially since more often than not a motorglider is an impediment to
advancing XC soaring.

A really big help for you will be a local community of soaring pilots.
If you find them you will also find a tow plane. Hence the immediate
need for a motorglider should be small, and a motorglider may actually
isolate you from the close knit community and mentors etc. that will
help you advance in your XC soaring.

Suspend ideas about ride businesses etc. and focus on getting several
hundred hours of quality soaring experience under your belt first. (If
you are in a good location you can easily do that in the first year of
soaring. I flew 15,000km and a couple of hundred hours my first
year).

Find the local group of soaring pilots and find a mentor or two who
will help you out with cross country soaring. A mentor might be a
instructor or not. Ask around, ask recent successful XC pilots and
find who mentored them. The mentor ideally be one of the local "big
dogs" who does serious cross country flying (look on OLC and ask
around). But not all of those guys may make great mentors and beware
of "hangar fliers" who have lots of opinion but don't actually rack up
the miles.

Ideally join a club or rent time in a reasonable performance two
seater like a Duo Discus or DG-1000S and put in some serious cross
country in a dual place ship where you can really follow along the
thought process or the instructor/mentor. This is especially important
in places like the CO Rockies, Sierra Nevada or Great Basin -- because
those places can kill you more ways than you can probably imagine.

Get to the point of flying some high performance single seaters cross
country by yourself and lead/follow with your mentor. If all you have
flown is a Blanik and and say went off an brought a Stemme you will
have gone from a Volkswagon Beetle to a Mac truck and have missed the
Porsche Turbo handling of a 15m or 18m class glider. It would be a
shame to buy a Mac truck if what you really wanted was that Turbo but
never bothered to test drive one. You similarly might be completely
frustrated with a lower-end touring class motorglider with L/D of the
low-mid 30:1's if what you really wanted was an 18m ship with L/D ~
50:1 and an ability to stick the nose down and really go places fast.
You won't know until you've flown more types.

Note that some of the most accomplished XC mentors you will find may
be hesitant to do this mentoring in a dual motor glider. But there are
exceptions, and there are some instructors who do great mentoring in
dual-seat motorgliders. Often specializing in one particular model/
type - so that might be part of any purchase decision.

Realize there is nothing wrong with an approach where you buy a
standard class or 15m ship and fly that for a few years then look at
next steps. If you buy well this won't cost you much.

If you can't suspend belief in the desirability of a motorglider
start with looking at Eric Greenwell's "A Guide to Self Launch
Sailplane Operation" available from http://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications.

If you do want a motorglider before deciding what types to purchase
ask yourself who is going to, or going to help you, maintain it?
Maintenance is often a big issue with motorgliders, and so should be
near top of the list in any purchase decision. Also is there a strong
local (or at least online) user/owner community who can help you with
all the complexity etc. involved in owning, maintaining and operating
the motor glider. Oh yes, and get your check book out and be willing
to keep it out.


Darryl Ramm
ASH-26E Driver (but I fly real gliders as well).

On Feb 7, 4:08*am, tienshanman tienshanman.
wrote:
I must say that I am pleasantly stunned by the competent advice on this
forum - thanks to all you for your thorough comments, especially Burt
and Daryll. To Daryll I apologize for not offering more info about
myself. I am a little bit embarrassed to admit that my soaring
experience is, well, limited. Here’s the story if anyone is interested.
I am a US citizen who has been living/working in Kazakhstan since 1995.
Kind of got stuck here, married here to a beautiful Ukrainian woman and
have 3 small children. We live just outside of Almaty (2 mill pop) in a
small canyon in the Tien Shan Mountains. There are 10k ft peaks all
around us and a vast wilderness area to the south. One reason I have
stayed here so long is that I love being so close to big mountains and
all of the outdoors sports possibilities they offer. I have worked here
in telecoms and mining.

Many years ago while in the Army in Germany I started hang gliding and
have flown for a couple of decades, then I began in parallel to fly
paragliders. However, the bag wing for me is more of a means to get
down fast off of peaks rather than a flying machine. Sure, I thermal
around in the thing for while when possible but compared to a hang
glider or sailplane it never really felt like flying. On the contrary,
it’s more akin to being in an aerial lawn chair. But heh, it gets me
from the 3000 meter peak behind my house (3 hr ascent) to the field in
front of my house in 20 min, which beats the hell out of walking down
and trashing my knees. Throughout my flying “career” I have been
peripherally interested in sailplanes. In Germany there is a glider
club in practically every village and I can recall being in big
thermals in the alps with hg’s, bag wings and several sailplanes all in
one big gaggle like a flock of buzzards in Texas hovering over some road
kill. Once in Austria on a gorgeous day in early June I counted 15
different “aircraft” thermal ling at once and almost had a mid air
collision with a baggy while counting. Every so often my interest in
sailplanes would peak a bit and I would do a sailplane ride, but I was
frankly not very impressed by being cooped up in a plastic solarium for
20 mins on a sled ride to the ground. Then I’d look around the airfields
and the obvious hassle, time commitment, bureaucracy, *and expense all
turned me off as well. I’m not much of a joiner and didn’t *care much
for the European club thing.

But I am older now and thought I’d give sailplanes one more shot. Among
other considerations I need a safer way to fly. So last summer I spent 8
days at a Russian glider school where 2 gnarly instructors in their 50s
ran me through the ringer for 9 days, from 5 am to 10 pm every day,
with about 15 flights/day. Endless landing patterns, spins, stalls,
etc. On day 4 I soloed the Blanik and flew alone after that. Toward the
end I was thermalling the thing around for 3 hrs at a shot and could
have flown much longer had the bad seat and parachute ergonomics
(military parachute!) not killed the small of my back! I Finally being
able to soar a sailplane and stare straight up into an approaching
cloud base turned out to be incredible and to make a long story short I
am now officially addicted. Because I have started to fly sailplanes
rather late in life I want to compress as much of it into my life as is
possible. I am now trying to figure out how I can structure my life to
make this happen. More than likely we will return to the US this summer
and I have spent hours researching places to live which have the best
combination of access to good flying, good schools, a critical mass of
interesting people and culture and good weather. One thing I do not
want to do is drive anything more that about 15 – 20 min to a glider
field and I intend to buy a self launching glider if some sort. I have
a lot of other sports interests and children so travelling big distance
is out. So is being dependent on tow planes. Currently I am thinking of
moving to the People’s Republic of Boulder or the Ft. Collins, or
buying property at a flight park somewhere; something along those lines
(advice in terms of location would also be greatly appreciated). Burt: I
would be happy to live in Marfa but after a 12 drive through west Texas
last year my wife ruled that idea out! So out of all of these
ruminations emerged my off the wall question about glider rides. I had
been simply thinking of options for how to integrate sailplanes into my
life, perhaps even make small business out of it to give me that
illusion that I would be gainfully employed. Burt’s comments brought me
down to earth however, and it’s now clear that I am probably not suited
to the commitment necessary for this business. Also, I am fairly set on
buying a SL’ing glider and not a motorglider and it does not appear that
a twin seat SL’ing sailplane is the best machine for that sort of
business. So thanks again for putting up with my neophyte question and
for the very good advice on this subject and perhaps I’ll have the
pleasure of meeting some of you when I come back home. Burt I am dying
to come to Marfa and fly there. My brother now lives in El Paso so that
gives me the excuse to get there. In the meantime I am looking forward
to going back to the Russian glider school in May for 9 more days of
flying when I’ve been told I’ll get to practice out landings and do
some modest cross country flights. I cannot wait.

--
tienshanman

Clearly you need an Antares 20E !
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
www.nadler.com